Coins Order of Malta are Tokens now ????

Some clever man, have changed all Coins from the Order of Malta to 'Tokens' and Malta

The Republik Malta isn't legitimate to strike this coins.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovereign_Military_Order_of_Malta

 
and Why should be that Tokens ?????   

In my opinion if the KM# doesn't have Tn before a number its a coin !
Same goes for some of the Canadian provinces coinage.

Cita: Mark240590In my opinion if the KM# doesn't have Tn before a number its a coin !
Same goes for some of the Canadian provinces coinage.

I agree with this. Numista catalog should try to match the standard catalog.

Maltese coins are fantasy coinage (X#), they aren't legal tender.

Cita: WikipediaThe Order of Malta (now based in Rome) has issued souvenir coins denominated in grani, tari and scudi since 1961, although few countries currently recognise these as legal tender.

Are we not talking the order of st.john or whoever stuff really here ? That was in grani. Before the British were invited to protect them.

The Numista catalogue does lack in the fact that some coins are tokens via KM

Oh and Kenny, you really shouldn't quote Wikipedia - I can edit it if I want. You would have your score on your degree slashed for doing that !

The way I've done it on Numista (and according to guidelines):
KM#: coin
KM#Tn: token (legal tender)
KM#Pn: pattern
KM#E: essai
KM#PE: piedfort essai
KM#L: leprosarium coinage
X#: fantasy coinage (token)

ECUs are iffy.

Quote: Wikipedia
SMOM has formal diplomatic relations with 104 states[30] and has official relations with another six countries and the European Union. Additionally it has relations with the International Committee of the Red Cross and a number of international organizations, including observer status at the UN and some of the specialized agencies.[31] Its international nature is useful in enabling it to pursue its humanitarian activities without being seen as an operative of any particular nation. Its sovereignty is also expressed in the issuance of passports, licence plates,[32] stamps,[33] and coins.[34]


SMOM foreign relations
  diplomatic relations

  other relations

The SMOM coins are appreciated more for their subject matter than for their use as currency

Cita: WikipediaThe Order of Malta (now based in Rome) has issued souvenir coins denominated in grani, tari and scudi since 1961, although few countries currently recognise these as legal tender.

Sorry, I couldn't found this quote in Wikipedia ???  

Where is it ? I change this error.

I am very disappointed about the decision, nobody will find the coins now in the Database.

And the Republik Malta and Order of Malta is the same as Moon and Sun...

Very clever now is the eBay-link "Buy coins from *tokens"

OK - it's your money - great

At last:

All Germany 'Notgeld' after WorldWar I are tokens.
Here is an own category for that
https://en.numista.com/catalogue/allemagne-pre1945-1.html#devise1874

hope you dont change this...

Cita: SmartOneKgECUs are iffy.

Every time I look at one in the UK section I wish I had the authority to wipe them out of existence.

So why are the New Brunswick 1 & 1/2 penny currency coins listed as tokens ? The tokens are fair enough though :)

Cita: manxcat12Every time I look at one in the UK section I wish I had the authority to wipe them out of existence.

Same here, but I think you can move them if you are referee for UK.

The New Brunswick penny coins can be moved to Canadian provinces if they circulated as a form of currency, rather than a specific use (trolley tokens, phone tokens, pub tokens). From what I understand, they did circulate.

Indeed Kenneth, please understand I don't blame you for all faults in the catalogue you're just the one I winge at !

Cita: Mark240590Indeed Kenneth, please understand I don't blame you for all faults in the catalogue you're just the one I winge at !

Ouch.

What's the problem ?

I'm sorry, I guess I took winge as an offense. Don't worry about it.

How ? Haha Jesus this international terminology does no favours. What I meant was moan at you all of the time !

Aha I still don't understand, but I think you mean all good intentions, thanks.

I believe 4795 coins as 'Tokens' are too much in Database.

It is very bad that you can not find the pieces.
Please think about it to release for the SMOM-Coins release an Subcategroy same as the German Notgeld.

And that are NOT 'souvenir coins' - yes they not Circulating, because the collectors value is much higher as nominal, same as most coins here - only produced for collectors.

The decision - tokens - means a referencing this database is no longer desirable and in selling case also means a financial loss.
While I'm sorry for the many work that I've made here, but I would leave this platform here.

It's very stupid Numista !

» Buy coins from * Tokens *

 

Well, I think there is a general disagreement on what a coin is and what a token is.
I have 3 points on this:

1) Refering to Krause as a source is more and more irrelevant, since they have made so many mistakes, and a collaborative catalog like Numista shall be overruling the mistakes. And we have some instances, where Numista successfully overrules Krause's ignorance.

2) In general, Numista needs a more clearcut definition on what we put where, as it is non-consistent, mostly - as quoted - in case of German Notgeld, or French city coinage and tokens for bread and beer and what-not are listed under France, while trial strikes for Euro Malta (as an example) are under tokens for no understable reason.
As with many things here on Numista, we shall rather focus on creating guiding principles and definitions, then consider the individual cases.

3) In the actual case, the "Sovrano Ospedaliero di Malta" has legal tender issuing rights, however the coins in question (e.g. the LIRA coinage) has nothing to do with the order, as you can clearly not find any reference to the 100 Liras coins on their website: http://www.orderofmalta.int/

So are these tokens or coins? - I do not know, but what I know is that it should be easier to decide if there would be a broadly accepted definition.

Imre

p.s. My long fight continues: Remove Hutt River Province from countries!

Cita: imrehAs with many things here on Numista, we shall rather focus on creating guiding principles and definitions, then consider the individual cases.

I totally agree. The two major improvements to the Numista catalog is to define Coin and Country. We need the definitions in the Guidelines. It isn't as important what says the definition of both, than to have them. The definitions must permit us to meet the objectives of the catalog: tool for swaps and record of our numismatic collection. We needn't a political or philosophical definition of Country, neither an economical definition of Coin.

https://en.numista.com/catalogue/principality-of-hutt-river-1.html
https://en.numista.com/catalogue/index.php?r=cardboard&mode=simplifie

Nothing happened. I load up here anyway no more of my pictures. Thank you for your attention

Cita: PurzelgnomNothing happened. I load up here anyway no more of my pictures. Thank you for your attention

If you click in Numista Team down in every page, you can see that nobody is in charge of Order of Malta. If you know that coins, have bibliography,... ask Xavier to be the referee for that country and correct it for yourself. Don't wait others do it. This is a collaborative website.

Now, I have looked more into the issue, and I have to admit even my post is misleading, because the issue is more complex than Hutt River  

1)
The Order of Malta (proper) DOES have legal tender issuing rights, and as Kenny has indicated they have the currencies of tari, scudi, granni in whatever sequence, have a look here:
http://www.orderofmalta.int/catalogue/coins/?lang=en

2)
Some private organizations have been issuing fantasy coins under their name in values of LIRAS, like these coins: https://en.numista.com/catalogue/index.php?r=100+liras+malta&c=&cc=y&cn=y&cj=y&ce=y&cu=y&cat=y&mode=simplifie&p=1&e=&d=&km=&i=&v=&m=&a=&t=&dg=&w=&g=

If we follow the simpliest logic available:
Coin is a legal tender (regardless whether it is circulating or not; regardless whether you can exchange it in a bank)
Token is not a legal tender

Then, the grani, tari, scudi of the Order of Malta proper ARE COINS and should go back to the country: "Malta, Order of"
While the private collector issues of the LIRE and LIRAS shall remain (unfortunately, as I have a bunch of those ) in the token section.

So, purzelgnom, you were right, even though you shall specify the coins in question more precisely, and probably with a bit more respect to those teammembers who are working for you!

Does it make sense?
It does.

So, in line with what zegeri wrote rightly:

Dear Purzelgnom,
As this is a collaborative catalog and you seem to have an expertise and interest in these Maltese coins, please, modify the country to "Malta, the Order of" in case it is a legal tender, as referenced here: http://www.orderofmalta.int/catalogue/coins/?lang=en

If they are matching and are verifiable, I am sure sooner or later a teammember will verify the modification.
Thanks for your contribution to the catalog.
Imre

Dear all,
I live a couple hundreds meters from SMOM HQ in Rome and I know them very well.
I read several papers about them and I also spoke with them.
As someone said the SMOM - Sovrano Militare Ordine di Malta (Military Sovereign Order of Malta) - is a sovereign state, recognized by several countries and supranational authorities.
It's the only country in the world that doesn't have a physical territory unless the HQ in the heart of Rome and some buildings over there.
They have no links with the Republic of Malta at the moment, the Knights had a base in Malta as now they're in Rome (previous in Rodi, Greece, and so on).
They have a currency and they adopt euro for transactions. They have rights to issue coins and print stamps (in Euro, postally valid as well as posted in their HQ in Rome).
More or less as Andorra, San Marino and Vatican.
As stated, coins are in precious metals only and for numismatic purposes, denominated in tari, grani and scudi.
So I think these aren't tokens but currency even if it doesn't circulate, as Andorra diners as well, and they should have the stand alone section Order of Malta.
Krause made a mistake, not the only one at all
About the above 2) Sovrano Ospedaliero Ordine di Malta - Hospital Sovereign Order of Malta - in Liras, they're private, unofficial coins (ie. tokens) like Palestine, Kurdistan, Greenland and so on. No links with the SMOM.
I hope all is more clear now.

Here the current government: http://www.orderofmalta.int/the-order-and-its-institutions/335/government/?lang=en

I suggest you to read its history (and the pdf at the end of the page): http://www.orderofmalta.int/history/639/history-order-of-malta/?lang=en

They also issued coins for circulation in the past, eg. catalogued under Malta section in the Krause 1700-1801 volume.

Cita: hyperborea79So I think these aren't tokens but currency even if it doesn't circulate, as Andorra diners as well, and they should have the stand alone section Order of Malta.
Krause made a mistake, not the only one at all
About the above 2) Sovrano Ospedaliero Ordine di Malta - Hospital Sovereign Order of Malta - in Liras, they're private, unofficial coins (ie. tokens) like Palestine, Kurdistan, Greenland and so on. No links with the SMOM.
I hope all is more clear now.

Thanks for your reinforcement hyperborea, I am in total agreement, specially when it comes to Krause's mistakes

IF I May, I'd like to jump in on the edge of this discussion ..  This concerns the listing of "Germany - 1871-1948.

This listing covers four topics:
German - Empire
German - Notgeld
German - Third Reich
German - Weimar Republic

As my collection is predominately German, it somewhat rubs a little to see it grouped this way.

On the topic of Notgeld. I have searched many different ways and found different coins listed and not listed, depending on search criteria.  In my opinion, and possibly many others, Notgeld is a coin and not a token. It was generally accepted as currency and used to purchase goods.  That also goes for the bread, milk, bear, gas, straßenbahn, etc...  These were not only used for their intended purpose, but were also accepted in bartering, each having it's own value. I spent over 9 years in Germany, spread between 1965 - 1982 and this information comes directly from people that lived the era and used Notgeld.

If at all possible, I would like to see the German listing defined as well as some of the other countries with multiple topic listings.

TYVM...
Fred....

I agree with derf, I have the same difficulty...

Notgeld is a coin and not a token. It was generally accepted as currency and used to purchase goods.

That's right. The cause was partly intended to hyperinflation after 1 World War I reparations to pay less.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperinflation_in_the_Weimar_Republic

If the combined listings for Germany 1871-1945 are making it harder to find coins in the catalog, then we need to reconsider this combination. Catalog ease of search should be our top concern.