Thinking of ways to protect from scammers, I'm looking at ID verification services. Perhaps you already seen such feature on websites like Airbnb, which also require trust among members. In order to get "verified", you need to show your ID card and your face in front of your webcam or the camera of your smartphone.
The system is offered by a third party company, which matches your face with your ID photo and store your ID details securely.
I like this idea and would support it. +1 from me.
The impact on scamming might be averted unless a scammer can get hold of a pic like that online. Maybe add the photo would need to have Numista somewhere in it, even if it is on a piece of paper.
Another I would pick is a certain amount of posts needed on the forum so others can try to get used to their personalities.
I don't like the idea of it being done by a 3rd party though, there are plenty of people here on Numista that could deal with it. Just like Numista staff, you have Numista security staff.
Restoration addict : Verdigris Removal : Zinc White spot removal : Iron Rust Removal : Silver brooch/necklace mount Removal
Asserting ID cards from every country in the world needs some expertise. I'm not sure this can be done by anyone. Additionally, I prefer that such personal data are stored on a server with high security standards.
Cita: "Xavier"Asserting ID cards from every country in the world needs some expertise. I'm not sure this can be done by anyone. Additionally, I prefer that such personal data are stored on a server with high security standards.
+1. Prefer credit/debit card verification (or at least the choice) as it's a bit simpler and less hassle to do and also verifies the address to the name, but would support this method too!
Third party verification is entirely the way to go with this. Numista should never be responsible for, or even have this kind of data.
Just a question - this "verified" is intended to be mandatory or not?
Honestly, I don´t like to give personal data and I don´t think Numista needs my data anyway.
I understand that airbnb, paypal or any transaction website (especially to avoid money laundry or possible offenses) have this option, but I do not think that is the case in Numista.
I do believe that scamming is an issue here, but the feedback system works by itself and by our own risk. I had been scammed as well in the past some few times, but I don´t blame on the website or the platform anyway.
Fortunately, 99% of the users here are not scammers.
I don't like this idea. If it is adopted, I'll probably leave Numista.
This method will not guarantee from scammers.
I collect coins and tokens which circulated in Africa from 18th century to 2000. I sell about 7000 illustrated world coins from http://www.avscoins.com.
Cita: "pietr"Just a question - this "verified" is intended to be mandatory or not?
Honestly, I don´t like to give personal data and I don´t think Numista needs my data anyway.
I understand that airbnb, paypal or any transaction website (especially to avoid money laundry or possible offenses) have this option, but I do not think that is the case in Numista.
I do believe that scamming is an issue here, but the feedback system works by itself and by our own risk. I had been scammed as well in the past some few times, but I don´t blame on the website or the platform anyway.
Fortunately, 99% of the users here are not scammers.
The key part of this proposal is that Numista will not receive or store any data.
It's like when you buy something from an online shop, and get redirected to paypal or a banking site to pay. The site does not get your personal data, only a 'pass' or a 'fail' from the transaction.
In this instance, you'd be redirected to a secure site to enter your data, then it would return you to numista and the only thing it would tell numista is 'this user passed verification.' At no point would Numista or Xavier have access to this information, and in the case of a scam it would be up to law enforcement to contact the verification site with the appropriate warrants or documentation.
It sounds like a good idea but I don't think it needs to be compulsory. For example, if members only want to use the catalogue and log their collection then there would be no need for ID verification.
Even if members want to swap then ID verification would not have to be compulsory but it would probably be a benefit to swappers and some members would probably only swap with you if you have been "vetted".
I think it is reassuring that Xavier is listening to members concerns and this is a good way to offer 3rd party verification without Numista getting directly involved with swap responsibility - this should always lie with the members participating in the swap.
Just because you can't see it ... doesn't mean it isn't there - Anon.
It could be good, it could be not. This could pull out lot of users from numista from both sides: honests and scammers. Many people may not understand what this feature is and how it works. Other people simply are reluctant for the changes.
Cita: "muygrandeoso"If this is implemented, I would get verified immediately. I would then ask unverified members to ship first in any swap.
There must be some small cost to this process. Those of us concerned about site security must be willing to cover this expense.
Thanks to Xavier for being open to this idea.
I'd verify immediately too. I wouldn't always be so distrusting, but I'd definitely require it for any valuable swaps.
The cost is quite low, and should easily be covered by the ads to be honest. We could make the verification process a donation actually, where you choose to donate 1 cent to 10 dollars or something as you verify. (as you're entering the information anyway)
I don't intend to swap anytime soon, but it's a definite possibility I'll do it eventually, and if so it will probably be in person (I meet the other swapper, we physically exchange coins).
I do not have a credit card, nor do I intend to get one either. Similarly for PayPal account (though that is a bit more likely because seemingly everything requires one now). A donation to Numista would probably involve me literally mailing a low-denomination coin to Numista's postal box, and likely more hassle than it's worth.
As for the face... even if it somehow is made to work, my webcam gets screwy if there's not enough light; and any photo I take might look quite dissimilar to my real face with differing amounts of hair, beard, or glasses (or dirt on glasses, for that matter).
Aren't we trying to do too much for too little here? Seems like it to me. Yes, indeed this will make scammers' life harder but is it worth the effort? I know it is not a simple change and will require Xavier to spend quite a bit of time on this. But I think that there are other options that should be equally effective against scammers but will be much cheaper to implement. Lots have been offered already. We have to accept the fact that it is close to impossible to prevent scams 100%. The only option would be in-person swaps only. We just have to be more responsible ourselves. My fastest swap took 1 day to confirm, but it was I think the third swap with a very reputable member. I think my average time working on a swap is about 5 days. During this time there is plenty of opportunity to sense the scam. Lots of suggestions were given in another thread with regards to this.
Anyways, back to the topic. I think that we should make less expensive (both financially and effort-wise) steps towards fighting scammers. My vote for the first such step would go for displaying swap statistics on user's profile page. That would include number of open (under negotiation) swaps, number of swaps initiated by this user out of currently open swaps, monthly number of completed swaps for a period of time, e.g. Mar-3(1), Feb-4(3), Jan-1(0), Dec-7(2), Nov-5(3), Oct-3(3). This example means a user had 5 completed swaps in March 1 of which was initiated by him/her. This could be the first step. I believe it will take Xavier a few hours to implement this kind of change.
Cita: "smoked_caramel"... e.g. Mar-3(1), Feb-4(3), Jan-1(0), Dec-7(2), Nov-5(3), Oct-3(3). This example means a user had 5 completed swaps in March 1 of which was initiated by him/her.
Consider this example, Mar-30(29), Feb-4(3), Jan-8(8), Dec-7(6), Nov-5(5), Oct-3(3) - would you swap with someone with this kind of trends? I won't!
What's the benefit of Numista (or third party identifier) staff knowing the national ID number of a person in another country with whom you had a swap going and didn't receive a letter from with coins hypothetically worth 15-20 Euro? How will you prove that the letter with coins has not been sent, if it was not registered or insured? Will you attempt to prosecute and under what jurisdiction? Maybe hire a trial attorney to represent you in court in another country for a fee of 200-300 Euro an hour? Are Numista swaps recognized at all by any jurisdiction as legally binding agreements?
Answer these questions and you'll understand that the proposal discussed is useless.
It's better simply to use your own good judgement, read feedback from previous swaps of the person, read its posts and generally see how the swap agreement is reached before sending your coins. You won't be 100% secure against a scam, but the same is true after the ID verification.
I collect coins and tokens which circulated in Africa from 18th century to 2000. I sell about 7000 illustrated world coins from http://www.avscoins.com.
By the way, when voting is organized, there should be an option to choose at least between the two: for and against. In this thread we see only a possibility to vote for. Reminds me of Stalinist "democracy".
I collect coins and tokens which circulated in Africa from 18th century to 2000. I sell about 7000 illustrated world coins from http://www.avscoins.com.
Problem is that we are coming from different countries and each of us has a different situation. If this proposal gets accepted it indeed can help some and hurt some.
I personaly do not own, nor collect anything expensive. This verification should be something that numista members can do only voluntarily but everyone should be aloud to swap.
I guess if I was about to swap coins in value of 100 Dollars I would swap only with verified members. But since I am swapping nickels and dimes, i can swap with whomever, it doesn't meter.
Also, I had negative experience when I know that I sent coins but my swap partner never received them because mail got lost/ stolen. That can not be my responsibility.
So far my "most expensive" swap was about 30 or 35€.
Everybody should be aware of the high risk by swapping coins worth more than 100€.
I think the many other suggestions made in other threads should be implemented first.
I am registered at amazon, ebay, paypal and many other shopping places without showing my ID to anybody (ok, they all have my bank data, they are getting their money).
If the ID-Webcam-Check is implemented, we will loose many swappers.
Many people won't overcome their inhibition.
I am not shure if i will give this picture of myself to a third party (who ever this is).
I am too thinking, we are trying to do too much for too little.
I am sure that many people won't register when they see that they need to provide a copy of their ID card and photos etc, while other websites don't ask for that. Furthermore there is a security risk. However I am glad to read that it won't be compulsory as I certainly would have left if it would have been. As has been written before, i think we are doing too much for too little. Furthermore I think time can better be spent on a new -more functional- and up to date verifying system. Enough changes have been made to the public part of the website.
Cita: "Andrey"By the way, when voting is organized, there should be an option to choose at least between the two: for and against. In this thread we see only a possibility to vote for. Reminds me of Stalinist "democracy".
I completely agree Andrey, this is very annoying and there was already promissed that it would be changed.
P.s. Oggy, I don't need you to speak in my place, thank you.
In my opinion the idea to verify users is good, but ID verification is too excessive.
I'll never give any third-party service my photo and ID scan.
I think that credit card verification is much simpler way to do that.
Too many people ferociously guarding privacy they already lost.
Would it certainly dodged scammers? Yes.
But would it also led to members exodus? Fights and distrust? We are only discussing it and people are already arguing...
It is everbody's choice to swap with somebody. Site cannot really be responsible for people's choices. But we can do some red flag measures.
Right now, I can check:
1 - For how long is the member on Numista
2 - How many posts he has on the forum
3 - What he posts in the forum!
4 - How many swaps he already done and how they ended (rating)
5 - If he is flagged for suspicious activity or not
6 - If he contributed to the catalogue, has his address visible in profile, filled his profile, has collection visible
Everything of these let me make a picture of a member I would like to swap with.
In addition to these markers I would like to see several more:
1 - Number of opened swaps by member
2 - Total number of opened swaps
3 - Total number of swaps ongoing (everyone until rated)
4 - NON-compulsory and voluntary both ID and address verification - It would add up some trust and do not do any damage if voluntary
Can we rally behind this and get something done. Or we will keep arguing and get nothing done? None of these measures hurt anybody and can protect us from ourselves.
Those who wish to do so are perfectly free to continue swapping in exactly the same way we do now. I agree that for people swapping low value coins the extra security of being verified is probably not a good investment of time, so carry on as before, nothing is changed for you. If you don't actively swap coins the impact on you is exactly zero, nil, none, zip.
My last ten or so swaps have all been in the $200+ range, the most expensive just over $400. No problems, no issues, because I'm very selective about who I swap high dollar lots with. However I would like the extra security of dealing with collectors who are serious enough to spend a few minutes establishing a valid ID and I'm happy to give the same courtesy in return.
The idea that I should be prevented from doing so because of a few objections from people with no understanding of the issue and who don't even use the swap engine is just laughable.
This isnt the option I would prefer but it's close enough, I could raise plenty of objections and offer counterproposals beyond some meaningless "I don't like this" but it's time to stop the useless flapping of gums and take some action.
Non illegitimis carborundum est. Excellent advice for all coins.
Make Numismatics Great Again!
Cita: "Jarcek"Can we rally behind this and get something done. Or we will keep arguing and get nothing done? None of these measures hurt anybody and can protect us from ourselves.
Regards,
Jarek
Yeah.
Put this guy in charge. He gets it.
Non illegitimis carborundum est. Excellent advice for all coins.
Make Numismatics Great Again!
Cita: "pnightingale"The idea that I should be prevented from doing so because of a few objections from people with no understanding of the issue and who don't even use the swap engine is just laughable.
Nobody prevents you from doing anything. It is a choice that is being made by Numista, not by you. This change concerns every Numista member, people who are not actively swapping right now may be doing so in the future, every opinion is valuable and should be taken into account. There is no need to make any hasty decisions.
In addition to the points I have raised earlier, I think that there will be many people who will only swap with these 'verified' members.
Cita: "pnightingale"The idea that I should be prevented from doing so because of a few objections from people with no understanding of the issue and who don't even use the swap engine is just laughable.
I think that there will be many people who will only swap with these 'verified' members.
And?
Non illegitimis carborundum est. Excellent advice for all coins.
Make Numismatics Great Again!
My problem with this is that Xavier will put in an effort (and probably some money) and 5 members will use the feature. And as stated by many above (and in other threads) it doesn't feel like something that will make scamming much harder.
To Phil's comment, just the mere fact that this will exist even as an optional thing will turn members both old-timers and new from Numista.
Cita: "Euromunt"I think that there will be many people who will only swap with these 'verified' members.
I would agree with this. Have you ever seen an eBay seller, for example, that would post something like "both verified and unverified PayPal members"? I have only seen "verified PayPal only" messages myself. Just for the sense of their own false security lots of members will add to their profiles that they will swap with verified members only no matter how large or small the swaps is.
I am completely new here and after reading through this threads i want to propose my idea.
Everyone posts 2 ounces of gold (preferably fractionals)with his name on the same picture to prove that they are legit collectors and dont need to scam. They could get a 'elite collector' badge under their nickname.
This would be much more reliable than relying on fake documents which are easily forged in romania.
Cita: "smoked_caramel"My problem with this is that Xavier will put in an effort (and probably some money) and 5 members will use the feature. And as stated by many above (and in other threads) it doesn't feel like something that will make scamming much harder.
To Phil's comment, just the mere fact that this will exist even as an optional thing will turn members both old-timers and new from Numista.
Cita: "Euromunt"I think that there will be many people who will only swap with these 'verified' members.
I would agree with this. Have you ever seen an eBay seller, for example, that would post something like "both verified and unverified PayPal members"? I have only seen "verified PayPal only" messages myself. Just for the sense of their own false security lots of members will add to their profiles that they will swap with verified members only no matter how large or small the swaps is.
Surely members have an absolute right to take any measures they see fit to protect themselves? Is it really being suggested that if I choose to swap only with those people who are verified that I should be prevented from doing so?
For my part it's very unlikely that I would restrict myself to swapping coins only with verified accounts. Folks who have been around for years and are looking for small swaps I'd probably go ahead as before. A $250 swap offer from someone who isn't verified, he's going to be mailing first.
That's how I'll probably use the new system. Others may use a different framework however it's their risk and thus their call.
Non illegitimis carborundum est. Excellent advice for all coins.
Make Numismatics Great Again!
"Surely members have an absolute right to take any measures they see fit to protect themselves? Is it really being suggested that if I choose to swap only with those people who are verified that I should be prevented from doing so?"
Exactly! If I choose to only swap with verified members, that's my choice to make, and if another member chooses not to become verified, and that limits their swap opportunities, that is their choice.
I will continue to swap with members that I know and trust, I would swap with Phil whether he chose to get verified or not, but I appreciate the information.
Just had a small thought on an individual swap level.
If 2 members are going to do valuable swaps, they could each deposit 1 cent or 1 dollar or whatever into the others bank account via transfer before the swap. This way you've basically verified your partner is who he says he is, and his bank account number. If he screws you, the police would have all the information they needed for identification.
You'd both need to send by registered post and keep proof of postage, and agree to do so beforehand.
That's a cool idea actually, I think I'll do it myself.
Cita: "oggy"Just had a small thought on an individual swap level.
If 2 members are going to do valuable swaps, they could each deposit 1 cent or 1 dollar or whatever into the others bank account via transfer before the swap. This way you've basically verified your partner is who he says he is, and his bank account number. If he screws you, the police would have all the information they needed for identification.
You'd both need to send by registered post and keep proof of postage, and agree to do so beforehand.
That's a cool idea actually, I think I'll do it myself.
Not gonna work worldwide. The only way to transfer money from Canada to an overseas bank is wire transfer. There is a minimum amount you need to do a wire, like $500. Fees are quite rediculous as well. The last time I had to use wire transfer I paid $42 and change to my bank and lost almost $100 in fees on the way to the destination. No bank can inform you of these intermediary fees upfront as they simply don't know what the route is going to be and every point on this route is going to take their share of fees. The cheapest way to send money overseas for me today is MoneyGram, but their fee is $12.
Cita: "muygrandeoso"I would swap with Phil whether he chose to get verified or not
Bingo! And what do you base this decision on?
I'm not saying this validation would not work or be totally useless. All I'm saying is that we do have rather enough clues and data points already. And I believe that this feature is not free to implement but will be used by a very small number of people. I'd rather see additional simpler/cheaper measures implemented that will serve similar purpose with probably even higher returns.
Yeah, it's a good idea but unworkable. Apart from the obvious drawback of cost, if I suspect that someone is a crook the last thing I'm going to be doing is giving the bd my banking info.
Non illegitimis carborundum est. Excellent advice for all coins.
Make Numismatics Great Again!
As the Huns say it is a bit "falling off on the other side of the horse after mounting"
Not that I am against strictening conditions, indeed, I am very much in favour in doing so, but wait a minute, and follow some logical steps:
1) the more info you let flow through Numista,
2) the more attractive Numista becomes for hackers (in itself or through verification services)
3) the more protection Xavier needs to spend on it...
Numista is a social website, I still go for my original it shall be protected by social means.
Rankings, communication patterns, forum posts do the job for most us.
Facebook, LinkedIn verification will add further trust, but giving my credit card number and more ...
... and just to finish the logical numbered list:
4) and as the law of statistics suggests, eventually Numista will be hacked. Not because it is unsafe (slightly sceptical on this though), but because it is the law of statistics. Those companies in the article employ 100s of security IT people, and spend tens of millions of dollars on data and log protection and it happened.
and finally:
If you verify scammers with third party verification, then what happens? You have the ID and the scammer's retina scan and all this, identify the home address, you name it ... then you approach saying: "You did not send the coins."
The scammer will say: "But, I did ..."
What is the next step?
Unless you want the swappers write a legally binding contract and have a certificate from the post office about the coins they have sent ... then http://www.bureauveritas.com/ verify that the post office did the authorization correctly ... hmm...
Nothing substitues social trust.
ADDITION: Indeed, the fact that so called "team members" have access to know exactly which coin I have gives me much more safety concerns. I doubt that these priviliged admin users went through a compliant security checking protocol.
PS: We do not see what coins you have, but it is true we can see who has which coin. It would have taken months to figure out which coins exactly one member have.
Now we have a new feature " swaps on the road". I think this is a fabulous addition and will enable us to recognize a scammer at the early stage of his/her evil doings. This does not protect everyone but scammers won't be able to scam more than few people before getting spotted.
i still think that there should be voluntery ID verification, not for me, but for those members that swap high value coins. Coins that I swap I could give you, but if I had coins that cost hundreds I would prefere additional security.
someone mentioned that people have fake IDs and that's something most of us did not think about. How to deal with that thing?
Hi,
I have never swapped a coin and i think will never do.
so as long as it remains optional,it is a nice feature.
Having said that I do agree that the perspective varies by region. There are places were using your card to buy in a shop is considered risky and there many others were even an unknown mechanic requests a bank transfer within 15 days of providing service.
therefore it should not be mandatory.
regards,
I have no objections on this. As i'm from an African country, i'm always looks suspicious for the majority of collectors in European counties. I've been cheated several times by people from everywhere in the world, including many civilized European and north american countries. To do swaps is a risky business, and I learned by the time that there is no safe way to prevent us from the scammers, so I have to take the risk.
Anyway, i'm here:
(No need yet but I understand the sentiment. Picture removed by bam777)
Take a cold beer or two guys. It's optional. O.P.T.I.O.N.A.L.
You don't like it , simply carry on as before using the old methods summarized by Mr. Smokey above. You won't be affected at all. Finally after many years of kicking the can down the road Numista is taking some common sense measures to address the issue of scammers. It's a significant departure from my original proposals but I can live with the compromise and I'm fully behind this.
I get some of the objections, yes I do. So it's up to each user to decide if the new system is for him. But I will not agree to anyone else taking the decision on my behalf. I'm free, white, 21, of sound mind and can take my own decision but thanks for your concern.
I don't trade with the uncivilised parts of the world because of their crappy postal services and cultural commitment to knavery. It's my choice to make and they day I'm prevented from making it because someone else wants to sing kumbaya is the day I will close my Numista account.
"FREEEEEEEEEEEDOOOOOOOOOOOMMMMMMMMMMM" - William Wallace
Non illegitimis carborundum est. Excellent advice for all coins.
Make Numismatics Great Again!
Cita: "pnightingale"Take a cold beer or two guys. It's optional. O.P.T.I.O.N.A.L.
You don't like it , simply carry on as before using the old methods summarized by Mr. Smokey above. You won't be affected at all. Finally after many years of kicking the can down the road Numista is taking some common sense measures to address the issue of scammers. It's a significant departure from my original proposals but I can live with the compromise and I'm fully behind this.
I get some of the objections, yes I do. So it's up to each user to decide if the new system is for him. But I will not agree to anyone else taking the decision on my behalf. I'm free, white, 21, of sound mind and can take my own decision but thanks for your concern.
I don't trade with the uncivilised parts of the world because of their crappy postal services and cultural commitment to knavery. It's my choice to make and they day I'm prevented from making it because someone else wants to sing kumbaya is the day I will close my Numista account.
"FREEEEEEEEEEEDOOOOOOOOOOOMMMMMMMMMMM" - William Wallace
I want to know what treatment you undertook to effect such drastic age recession.
After reading this entire thread (twice!) I honestly do not understand how this will prevent scammers. But there are some people involved in this thread that are much smarter than me--and I have to say that something is better than nothing.
https://en.numista.com/forum/topic47157.html
As a victim of "gold ruble" aka "32Andre" I can see how a scammer after expending his scamming capital in one user name (32Andre) then becomes a new name (gold ruble) and goes on undetected. To my small uneducated mind, address verification appears to be the only way to prevent this. In this case, the moderating party (and thus the potential victims) would know "32Andre" and "gold ruble" share the exact same name and address.
If an alternate ID could be used, such as a passport at one username, and driver license at the other--there does not appear to be a way to cross check, except perhaps the member's first and last name. Variations in first/middle/last names can be circumvented, still avoiding detection. https://en.numista.com/forum/topic46162.html
Most of the above is just rambling thought, and I still think something is better than nothing. Oh yes, and please beware of "gold ruble"! He is still active!
In my opinion, the biggest issue of the ID verification is how this feature stops scamming.
So, assuming the ID is provided and verified, scammers can still scam people on Numista. So what can we do if we find a scammer? Disclose his information? (this leads to privacy problem), as a tool to screen out scammers? (Scammers can still use others' ID, producing fake IDs as you guys don't know the format and security feature of ones' ID, and this could be taken only after a scam is found)
Security of the private info is also a large problem.
Scamming is a large problem here because we basically don't have way to put scammers into law. And that's what we need to solve. But an ID verification seems not to be a good way to solve it.
Stato cambiato a Respinta(Xavier, 9 Feb 2019, 11:57)
