It seems that Portuguese India had a rather complex currency history which is not very well described in any catalogue, on-line or in print. Numista currently has the following.
Pre 1880: 60 réis = 1 tanga, 10 tanga = 1 rupia (two sections before and after 1871)
1880-1910: 45 réis = 1 tanga, 16 tanga = 1 rupia (no coins actually denominated in réis)
1910-1957: 16 tanga = 1 rupia
1958-1961: 100 centavos = 1 escudo
It seems to me that the first of these is confirmed by the coins themselves, as are the last two, with 6 escudos = 1 rupia. The problem is the second currency, as it appears to contradict what's on the stamps. These indicate that there were 12 réis to the tanga, i.e., 192 réis to the rupia, from 1881 up to 1958. See
where the values of the stamps issued only make sense if there are 192 réis to the rupia. Add to this the fact that stamps were issued from 1881 in denominations up to 10 réis, then "jump" to 1 tanga. Of course, if there are 12 réis to the tanga, there is no jump. Furthermore, 12 réis to the tanga mirrors the 12 pies to the anna in British India and 1 real would be the denomination of the smallest coin issued by Portuguese India after 1881, the 1/12 tanga.
Where then does the number 45 come from? The following document
may help explain things but my grasp of Portuguese is pretty poor, so an alternative explanation may present itself. As far as I can make out, this discusses the 1901 issue of coins in terms of two different réis, "Portuguese" and "provinciaes" (also called "coloniaes"), with the tanga worth 45 réis provinciaes or 25 Portuguese réis .
What I'm wondering is, could this provincial or colonial real be the old, pre 1881 real? This would then represent a devaluation of this real from 1/600 to 1/720 of a rupia at the point of its replacement by a new real equal to the British Indian pie. If my interpretation of the evidence is correct, I would suggest the following currencies be used:
Pre 1881: 60 réis = 1 tanga, 10 tanga = 1 rupia (merger of the first two rupia)
1881-1958: 12 réis = 1 tanga, 16 tanga = 1 rupia (merger of the last two rupia)
1958-1961: 100 centavos = 1 escudo
There are currently no issuing authorities for Portuguese India, so adding these at the same time would save some editorial effort. I look forward to any comments, particularly from anyone who can read Portuguese.
Former Numista referee for banknotes from Ireland, Northern Ireland, Scotland, Wales and Saint Helena.
Unfortunately, I could not follow your argument regarding stamp values.
I didn't read the entire paper, but where exactly does it say that the tanga was 25 Portuguese reis?
Here are the three paragraphs that I think are relevant + translations:
"Na tabella seguinte se vê em que relações de eqnivalcncia estão os valores d'estas moedas com a moeda forte em réis da metropole, sendo a rupia representada por 16 tangas e valendo cada uma d'estas 45 réis provinciaes."
The following table shows the values of these coins in relation to the metropole hard currency in reis, the rupiah being represented by 16 tangas, each worth 45 provincial réis.
"Não se pensou em cunhar a tanga, que na epoca da convenção já era considerada como moeda de conta, origem ficticia das subdivisões que d'ella tomaram o nome, porque a moeda subsidiaria de grande peso e modulo é hoje banida dos systemas monetarios de quasi todas as nações, justamente reconhecida por incommoda."
It was not thought to mint the tanga, which at the time of the convention was already considered a currency of account, the fictitious origin of the subdivisions from which it took its name because the subsidiary coin of great weight and modulus was then banned from the monetary systems of almost all nations, rightly recognized as an inconvenience.
"Pondere-se que a tanga effectiva anterior, a de 1871, cunhada em Bombaim, pesava cerca de 37.50 grammas, e que 12 d'estas moedas, que então equivaliam a uma rupia de prata, ou 720 réis coloniaes, representavam 450 grammas de cobre; reunida que fosse, por exemplo, a. quantia de 2$160 réis, ou tres rupias, em moedas de tanga, achavam-se 1:350 grammas de peso, sensivelmente oneroso para ser transportado em bolsas de particulares, embora fossem curtas as distancias que elles houvessem de percorrer. Actualmente, valendo a mesma rupia 16 tangas, aquelle peso reduzir-se-hia a 1:248 grammas, se a tanga fosse cunhada. Eis a causa que obsta á. emissão d'este padrão monetario. Na verdade, para quem economiza a vida, o tempo e o dinheiro não slto iudiffercntes sacrificios que se possam evitar."
It is estimated that the previous effective tanga, that of 1871, minted in Bombay, weighed about 37.50 grams and that 12 of these coins, which were then equivalent to one silver rupee, or 720 colonial réis, represented 450 grams of copper; gathered together, for example, the amount of 2,160 réis, or three rupees, in tanga coins, they were 1,350 grams of weight, sensibly expensive to be transported in private purses, although the distances they had to travel were short. Nowadays, being worth the same Rupiah 16 tangas, that weight would be reduced to 1,248 grams if the tanga was minted. This is the cause that hinders the emission of this monetary standard. In fact, for those who save life, time and money, there are no sacrifices that can be avoided.
So based on these paragraphs:
1871: 60 réis = 1 tanga; 12 tanga = 1 rupia
1901: 45 réis = 1 tanga, 16 tanga = 1 rupia (with the tanga never being issued because it was too heavy to carry around
Another good source is "Contributions to the Study of Indo-Portuguese Numismatics" by J. Gerson Da Cunha, Joseph Gerson Cunha, originally published in the 1880s. According to Part IV:
~1750: 60 réis = 1 tanga; 10 tanga = 2 serafins = 1 rupia (page 85)
15.01.1880: 12 réis = 1 tanga; 16 tanga = 1 rupia (page 113)
So putting these together and highlighting in bold what is different to what we have now:
1706-1871: 60 réis = 1 tanga, 10 tanga = 1 rupia, etc... (tanga of 38g)
1871-1880: 60 réis = 1 tanga; 12 tanga = 1 rupia (tanga of 38g) 1880-1901: 12 réis = 1 tanga, 16 tanga = 1 rupia (tanga of 26g) 1901-1911: 45 réis = 1 tanga, 16 tanga = 1 rupia (tanga of 26g)
1911-1958: 1 Rupia = 16 Tangas (tanga copper standard abandoned)
1958-1961: 100 centavos = 1 escudo
Regards
Stato cambiato a Iniziato(stratocaster, 3 Ott 2020, 15:29)
Thanks for looking into this. I was begining to think no one else was interested. To begin with the stamps, consider the following table.
If 40,324 × 3 réis stamps plus 4631 × 1 tanga stamps are worth 919 rupees 8 tangas, and 24 × 3 réis stamps plus 631 × 1 tanga stamps are worth 39 rupees 13 tangas, the rupee must be worth 192 réis and the tanga must be worth 12 réis. No other valuation is possible.
As to where the second document states that 25 Portuguese réis equaled 1 tanga, that's in the table on page 113, which states that the half tanga was equal to the English half anna with a value of "$022,50" Portuguese Indian réis or "$012,500" Portuguese réis. That puts the tanga at 45 Portuguese Indian réis or 25 Portuguese réis.
Unfortunately, the book by Da Cunha isn't available to me. Could you possibly post some screen shots?
Former Numista referee for banknotes from Ireland, Northern Ireland, Scotland, Wales and Saint Helena.
Many thanks. That confirms the adoption of the British currency system and the use of the name real for the pie. My reading of page 113 of Da Cunha is that the treaty was agreed in 1880 but we know the coins and stamps only came out in 1881, so it appears that this is when the treaty was implemented.
In your earlier post, you suggested that there was a switch to 45 réis = 1 tanga, 16 tanga = 1 rupia in 1901. Can you tell me where that comes from? It seems very odd to have switched back to the smaller real and I can see no evidence for this in the coins or stamps.
Former Numista referee for banknotes from Ireland, Northern Ireland, Scotland, Wales and Saint Helena.
Cita: "ceh2019"In your earlier post, you suggested that there was a switch to 45 réis = 1 tanga, 16 tanga = 1 rupia in 1901. Can you tell me where that comes from? It seems very odd to have switched back to the smaller real and I can see no evidence for this in the coins or stamps.
That first article is refering to the "provincial" or "colonial" real, which was last issued in 1871, not the real (equal to the Indian pie, as shown by your article) in use after 1881. This is backed up by the stamps and is represented in coins by the 1/12 tanga, a denomination which makes no sense if the tanga was equal to 45 réis. As I said to begin with, there were two réis being refered to in that article but the stamps and your article show which one was considered to be the primary currency subunit.
Former Numista referee for banknotes from Ireland, Northern Ireland, Scotland, Wales and Saint Helena.
That's your theory but it's quite irrelevant how many réis to the tanga after 1880, since they were not minted anymore. So to close this, I propose we fix two things:
Definitiely better than what we currently have (and not incorrect) but we shouldn't be too dismissive of other uses of currency, even when not minted as coins. Are we sure it's 1880 and not 1881? That's when the coins appeared (the stamps were a year later).
Former Numista referee for banknotes from Ireland, Northern Ireland, Scotland, Wales and Saint Helena.
Actually, better still would be
Rupia (1871-1881): 1 rupia = 12 tangas = 720 réis
Rupia (1881-1958): 1 rupia = 16 tangas
since there's no need to split the currency at 1911.
Former Numista referee for banknotes from Ireland, Northern Ireland, Scotland, Wales and Saint Helena.
Convention for the new currency came into force on 15 January 1880 and coins dated 1881 were minted from 1880. See da Cunha, page 122. So 1880 should be correct unless there's evidence to the contrary.
Otherwise, these changes are implemented.
Coins from the 1911-1957 Rupia have to be moved to the 1880-1958 Rupia.
I requested for the coins and notes to be moved. The notes have been transferred but all the requests to move the coins have been rejected by the referee. I have asked them to contribute to this discussion to explain.
Former Numista referee for banknotes from Ireland, Northern Ireland, Scotland, Wales and Saint Helena.
Sorry but I have missed this discussion.
Literature on this subject is very scarce. There is still a problem: -The currencies are Rupia and Réis and, public accounting, is done in Réis. The Indian Reis worth less (+/-20%) than the Reis de Portugal. The available documents refer to Réis from Portugal and Réis from Goa and the authors often shuffle everything and leave the reader confused.
I have made a quick reading of this topic and I found it very interesting, specially the introduction of postage stamps in the study.
I need some time to print and read everything carefully and I'll get back to the subject shortly afterwards.
What failed in this case: -I didn't notice the discussion and no one sent me a personal message to alert me.
I have already spent hundreds of hours studding the Portuguese/India currency and the present discussion with the introduction of stamps in the study was a good help.
The king Luiz period has always been my head hake. During his reign, due to the politic situation in Portugal, India has known 15 Governors and some Governing Councils. The coinage was also a mess due to the politic instability.
Back to the Numista currencies. The main purpose of the study was to split the coins in different periods.
The first period is the less exact because the currencies had a variation in time and location.
Until 1870 there are no doubts: 1 Rupia=10 Tangas; 1 Tanga=60 Réis (38,5 g cooper). Therefore, one Rupia is equivalent to 385 grams of cooper.
1871 and the first mechanical coinage. The system is exactly the same as before. The mention at O ARCHEOLOGO PORTUGUÊS that refers 1 Rupia=12 Tangas is wrong. The error is often repeated by various authors and I have made the same mistake in our pages. The reason for the mistake is a bad interpretation of the Decree 30th April 1874: …«Article 14.. The value of the Xerafim (½Rupia) is fixed at 6 Tangas or 360 Goa Réis from 1st July 1875.»... (Col. Da Leg. Do Ultramar. Vol. VIII. 1874 to 1874). This law was only issued to authorize the circulation of the old gold Xerafins (½Rupia) increasing its value from 5 to 6 Tangas, and not to change the circulation system. Therefore, from 1871 to 1880, the currency was still 1 Rupia= 10 Tangas; 1 Tanga= 60 Réis.
1880. The Luso-Britannic Convention was signed unifying the Portuguese and British systems producing new coins and equivalences: 1 Rupia= 16 Tangas (Annas); 1 Tanga(Anna)= 12 Réis (Pies). 1 Rupia(Pt)= 1 Rupee(Bt)= 192 Réis = 192 Pies
The Convention would finish in 1900 but it was decided to maintain the currencies after 1900.
1910: End of the Monarchy, beginning of the Republic. The system was not changed and the only reason to have a separated currencies from 1911 to 1957 is to split Monarchy and Republic since the aspect of the coins is completely different.
The conclusion is to leave the current currencies with the following minor changes:
There are two very significant elements of what you propose. Let me deal with them separately (and in reverse chronological order).
First, the division in 1910/11. This is no longer needed, as we have ruling authorities to separate the issues of the Kingdom and the Republic. You say that the "aspect" of the coinage changed but in fact only the designs changed, the sizes of the coins were unaltered (compare the rupia of Carlos I and the Republic).
Second, you state that the rupia continued to be divided into 10 tanga between 1871 and 1881. This is fascinating and not something I anticipated at all. At first glance, the stamps would seem to back this up, since the two highest denominations between 1871 and 1881 were 600 and 900 réis, meaningless if there were 720 réis to the rupia but corresponding to 1 and 1½ rupia if there were still 10 tangas to the rupia. My only concern with this revelation is this document from 1903, which values the tanga (1/16 of a rupia by then) at 45 old Portuguese India réis. However, if we're confident that, even by 1903, the error you refer to had already become thoroughly established, then there seems little argument. My only question is, are there some clear references which show that there were 10 tangas to the rupia between 1871 and 1881?
Thank you for taking the time to look in to this. I for one appreciate it greatly.
Former Numista referee for banknotes from Ireland, Northern Ireland, Scotland, Wales and Saint Helena.
Monarchy/Republic
I do not see any problem in putting everything together
Exercise: Calculate the value in cooper of a Rupee(16 Annas), a Rupia(10 Tangas) and a Rupia(12 Tangas).
The Rupee was a 11g silver coin at India Pt and India Bt. Only the sub-division was different.
British Rupee ............. 1/12 Anna= 2.1 g.............................. 2.1*12*16=403 g
Port. Rupee(10 T)........... 1 Tanga= 38 g .................................. 10 * 38 = 380 g
Port. Rupee(12 T).......... 1 Tanga= 38 g .................................. 12 * 38 = 456 g
Looking at the weight 456 to 403 g, we can immediately conclude that such a big difference would result in a drawn of the cooper coins from India Pt to India Bt.
380 to 403 is more likely.
The Decree 30.IV.1874
1/2 Rupee = 1 Pardau= 2 Xerafim= 5 Tangas.
The reason for having two coins of the same value but with different names is due to the metal they are made of. Traditionally the Pardau is a silver coin, while the Xerafim is a gold coin.
If the system was 1 Rp= 12T, it made no sense to issue a decree saying that a gold Xerafim was worth 6 Tangas. The decree was made because the Xerafins from the previous kings, due to inflation, were already worth more than 5 Tangas and were treasured. Thus its value was officially increased from 5 to 6 Tangas.
The stamp values
To pay 900/600/300 Réis in the system of 1Rupia=12 Tangas=720 Réis would be rather complicated.
Cita: "monge"Monarchy/Republic
I do not see any problem in putting everything together
Exercise: Calculate the value in cooper of a Rupee(16 Annas), a Rupia(10 Tangas) and a Rupia(12 Tangas).
The Rupee was a 11g silver coin at India Pt and India Bt. Only the sub-division was different.
British Rupee ............. 1/12 Anna= 2.1 g.............................. 2.1*12*16=403 g
Port. Rupee(10 T)........... 1 Tanga= 38 g .................................. 10 * 38 = 380 g
Port. Rupee(12 T).......... 1 Tanga= 38 g .................................. 12 * 38 = 456 g
Looking at the weight 456 to 403 g, we can immediately conclude that such a big difference would result in a drawn of the cooper coins from India Pt to India Bt.
380 to 403 is more likely.
The Decree 30.IV.1874
1/2 Rupee = 1 Pardau= 1 Xerafim= 5 Tangas.
The reason for having two coins of the same value but with different names is due to the metal they are made of. Traditionally the Pardau is a silver coin, while the Xerafim is a gold coin.
If the system was 1 Rp= 12T, it made no sense to issue a decree saying that a gold Xerafim was worth 6 Tangas. The decree was made because the Xerafins from the previous kings, due to inflation, were already worth more than 5 Tangas and were treasured. Thus its value was officially increased from 5 to 6 Tangas.
The stamp values
To pay 900/600/300 Réis in the system of 1Rupia=12 Tangas=720 Réis would be rather complicated.
Cita: "monge"Monarchy/Republic
I do not see any problem in putting everything together
Exercise: Calculate the value in cooper of a Rupee(16 Annas), a Rupia(10 Tangas) and a Rupia(12 Tangas).
The Rupee was a 11g silver coin at India Pt and India Bt. Only the sub-division was different.
British Rupee ............. 1/12 Anna= 2.1 g.............................. 2.1*12*16=403 g
Port. Rupee(10 T)........... 1 Tanga= 38 g .................................. 10 * 38 = 380 g
Port. Rupee(12 T).......... 1 Tanga= 38 g .................................. 12 * 38 = 456 g
Looking at the weight 456 to 403 g, we can immediately conclude that such a big difference would result in a drawn of the cooper coins from India Pt to India Bt.
380 to 403 is more likely.
The Decree 30.IV.1874
1/2 Rupee = 1 Pardau= 1 Xerafim= 5 Tangas.
The reason for having two coins of the same value but with different names is due to the metal they are made of. Traditionally the Pardau is a silver coin, while the Xerafim is a gold coin.
If the system was 1 Rp= 12T, it made no sense to issue a decree saying that a gold Xerafim was worth 6 Tangas. The decree was made because the Xerafins from the previous kings, due to inflation, were already worth more than 5 Tangas and were treasured. Thus its value was officially increased from 5 to 6 Tangas.
The stamp values
To pay 900/600/300 Réis in the system of 1Rupia=12 Tangas=720 Réis would be rather complicated.
Let's go through these three arguments. First, the copper weights. I'm disinclined to place too much emphasis on the weights of token coins (that is, coins whose value did not depend upon their metal content) but, with the correct weight for the 1/12 anna of 33⅓ grains (2.16 g) and for the tanga of 37.5 g (taken from this reference), we get 1 rupee of copper coins weighing 414.7g, equivalent to 11.06 tangas by weight, rather too close to half-way between the weights of 10 and 12 tangas to be conclusive.
Second, the retariffing of the xerafim to 6 tangas. As you say, this was a gold coin and the relative values of gold and silver coins often fluctuated due to changes in precious metal prices. However, I'm not convinced that a later rise in the value of a gold coin can be interpreted as implying that the silver didn't rise earlier. This could have been a case of gold catching up with the earlier change in the silver coinage.
The stamps remain for me the strongest argument so far but, since 300, 600 and 900 réis correspond to 5, 10 and 15 tangas regardless of how many tangas there were to the rupia, I can't say that it's conclusive.
It strikes me that, if you have access to the decrees relevant to Portuguese India, it ought to be possible to find the 1871 decree for the introduction of the new copper coins. If that makes no mention of the change to 12 tangas or, better still, if it makes it clear the rupia was still worth 10 tangas, then I think we have what we need.
Former Numista referee for banknotes from Ireland, Northern Ireland, Scotland, Wales and Saint Helena.
I'm running out of arguments to convince you that Rupee never equaled 12 Tangas.
A few years ago, at the Portuguese Numismatics Association, we discussed the matter in depth and considered it closed. Tomorrow night I'll go to the usual meeting and, if other participants in this study are there, I will try to get more data.
Cita: "monge"I'm running out of arguments to convince you that Rupee never equaled 12 Tangas.
A few years ago, at the Portuguese Numismatics Association, we discussed the matter in depth and considered it closed. Tomorrow night I'll go to the usual meeting and, if other participants in this study are there, I will try to get more data.
I'm sorry if I seem difficult to convince. It certainly isn't a question of a lack of trust. It's just that something like this is sufficently well established that we're bound to get frequent complaints from people seeing "12 tangas = 1 rupia" on sites like this and requesting we change our site. Actually, that site backs up your explanation (if I understand the Portuguese correctly) of where the error comes from as well as getting the later valuation wrong. Nevertheless, call me greedy, but I always like to have definitive proof if possible. Please pass on my greetings to the Portuguese Numismatics Association. Any further evidence they can provide would be very gratefully received.
Former Numista referee for banknotes from Ireland, Northern Ireland, Scotland, Wales and Saint Helena.
The first study of the India Pt is published at https://drive.google.com/file/d/1TOw_VrkRYJAzFNFxkZAWTFXFQdVrLcZl/view?usp=sharing
It was published at 1883 by J. Gerson da Cunha, collector, living in Bombay and with full access to the all documentation of the Goa Mint House. This book is still referred in all studies.
Except for the first 80 years, never the Rupia was equal to 12 Tangas. Reading the book, it is never mentioned such a system. As a matter of fact, the system was the same from ±1570 to 1881 (300 Years).
Regarding The statement of O ARQUEOLOGO PORTUGUES (1903) that the Rupee was equal to 12 Tangas, I have the calculation made by Mr Gerson da Cunha at page 143 of its book.
There is a typing mistake somewhere since the total is 6,251,507 Réis, but it is not important to this calculation.
He has the value calculated in Xerafins:Tangas:Réis.
Question: - ?1 Xerafim= 5T(300 Réis) or 6T(360Réis)?
6,251,207/300= 20,837.36= 20,837:1:47
6,251,207/360= 17,364.46= 17,364:2:47
It is obvious that he has used the system 1 Rp= 10T=600 Réis or 1 Xerafim=5T= 300 Réis
This system change from the 10T Rupee to the 12T Rupee was of course of great importance and would be mentioned in its book. It is not and he was living there at that time.
Economically there was no reason for the change since the cooper price was stable. On the other hand, devaluing copper coins by 20% was a stupid and pointless idea. It was expensive and the result would be the disappearance of the copper coins, smuggled into India Bt. To do exactly the opposite was wiser and was the current practice in small oversee Portuguese territories such as the Azores and Madeira to prevent copper drainage.
It is difficult to study the coinage of India Pt because the documentation is spread across multiple offices and is not scanned.
There is a more modern book, The INDO-PORTUGUESE MONEY, by J. Ferraro Vaz based in the Gerson da Cunha but with more recent information and, in any page, such a 12T Rupee exists.
The only reference to 1 Xerafim=6 Tangas is from the Decree 30th April 1874. Gold Xerafins were not minted for over 30 years, but the old coins were still in use with inflated values and subject to speculation. That's why the decree was issued fixing its value in 6T in all transactions with the Public Treasury.
Therefore, this is not a monetary reform but a mere emergency law to legalize the old gold coins.
Thank you for questioning my conclusions as this forced me to review them and substantiate them a little further.
Thanks for this reply. I think this book convinces me. Unless someone else has objections, I suggest the following changes. We merge Rupia (1706-1871) and Rupia (1871-1880) into Rupia (1706-1880) and we move all coins currently in Rupia (1911-1957) into Rupia (1880-1958), with the former to then be removed.
Many thanks for taking the time on this.
Former Numista referee for banknotes from Ireland, Northern Ireland, Scotland, Wales and Saint Helena.
With all the coins and notes in their correct currencies, can we now please change the description for Rupia (1871-1880) to 1 Rupia = 10 Tangas • 1 Tanga = 60 Réis
following the above discussion?
Former Numista referee for banknotes from Ireland, Northern Ireland, Scotland, Wales and Saint Helena.