Southern German currencies before 1837 [Risolto]

Most southern German states were using the Conventionsthaler before 1837 divided into 120 Kreuzer (for higher denominations) and 144 Kreuzer Land Münze (for lower denominations) with accounts kept in Gulden of 60 Kreuzer Land Münze. However, we have various mangled versions of this at present in the different states. For example, the have the following titles.
Bavaria
1 Conventionsthaler = 144 Kreuzer = 480 Pfennig = 960 Heller • 1 Ducat = 2.25 Conventionstaler • 1 Kronenthaler = 1.125 Conventionsthaler
Hessen-Darmstadt
1 Gulden = 0.75 Thaler = 60 Kreuzer = 240 Pfennig = 480 Heller
Saxe-Coburg-Gotha
1 Thaler = 24 Groschen = 90 Kreuzer = 288 Pfennig • 1 Ducat = 2 Thaler
Württemberg
1 Thaler = 1.75 Gulden = 120 Kreuzer • 1 Friedrich d'Or = 5 Thaler • 1 Ducat = 2 Thaler
Some of these are ignored when it comes to the values assigned to the coins but we have values based on various Gulden and Thaler. Before proposing specific changes to the individual states, can we agree on the principles to be applied to all of these states that were using a common currency? I propose the following starting point:
1 Conventionsthaler = 120 Kreuzer = 144 Kreuzer Land Münze
with additional denominations (Pfennig, Heller, etc.) where appropriate (noting also that come states used the term Scheide Münze rather than Land Münze) and all coins valued in Conventionsthaler. Once we have the right titles, assigning the correct values to the coins should be straightforward.

Landmünzen are a form of Scheidemünze but these are not denominations so I don't know if they should be used in these subheaders.
Landmünze is a term used from the Kipper and Wipper time from the 30 years war until the late 18th century for coins not minted with the official foot.
A Scheidemünze is a kind of fiat or non Kurant money (Currency money) that is not covered by the metal value but just by the value written on it like emergency or credit money (used until 1914).

Just my little terminology input. I find the German currencies of that time confusing and am also not too familiar with them so I hope more knowledgeable people will add to the discussion.

We need a way of differentiating the two kinds of Kreuzer since they had different values. The widespread use of Land Münze on the coins (e.g., https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces26760.html) makes it the obvious candidate but, if there's a better term that covers all these issues, I'd be happy to use that instead.

No strong opinion but as 2 systems are apparently linked to specific times and contexts, I would tend to create two separate currencies, right? It would help differentiate coins on lists page.

Compendium

No strong opinion but as 2 systems are apparently linked to specific times and contexts, I would tend to create two separate currencies, right? It would help differentiate coins on lists page.

 

What two currencies do you mean? There were two distinct Kreuzer, circulating together, both of which were subunits of the Conventionsthaler. Typically, coins up to 6 Kreuzer were Land Münze, 10 Kreuzer and higher were “Conventions Münze” (though that term wasn't used). Splitting them would divide up coins which were issued and circulated together.

ceh2019

 

What two currencies do you mean? There were two distinct Kreuzer, circulating together, both of which were subunits of the Conventionsthaler. Typically, coins up to 6 Kreuzer were Land Münze, 10 Kreuzer and higher were “Conventions Münze” (though that term wasn't used). Splitting them would divide up coins which were issued and circulated together.

It was only based on Idolenz remarks but i probably misunderstood, so if both types circulated together and had same reference denomination then indeed one currency makes sense

Technically there was only one Kreuzer, just a few were crappier then the other. Like if you had a convertible 1 dollar banknote and a non-convertible one.

 

I don't know where the 144 comes from but I believe this would defeat the purpose of a fiat currency if it wasn't as valuable as proclaimed (at least from the view point of the issuer). The users of course didn't really want to hold on to these kind of coins but I believe for things below the value of 10 thalers (according to the ‘General State Laws for the Prussian States’) you could only use Scheidemünzen so there was enough coins in circulation for daily transactions. 😅

Idolenz

Technically there was only one Kreuzer, just a few were crappier then the other. Like if you had a convertible 1 dollar banknote and a non-convertible one.

 

I don't know where the 144 comes from but I believe this would defeat the purpose of a fiat currency if it wasn't as valuable as proclaimed (at least from the view point of the issuer). The users of course didn't really want to hold on to these kind of coins but I believe for things below the value of 10 thalers (according to the ‘General State Laws for the Prussian States’) you could only use Scheidemünzen so there was enough coins in circulation for daily transactions. 😅

No, there were two distinct Kreuzer. At the moment, there are too many errors in the valuation of the coins for the clear distiction to be apparant. The 144 came about when the Conventionsthaler was introduced and the South German states found that their debased Kreuzer were too debased to be equivalent to 1/120 Conventionsthaler. Note that this was a South German phenomenon and that Prussia had it's own Thaler with a quite separate set of subdivisions.

OK so I think we agree on the principle as you asked.
What we need now is the list of issuers for which I should attach “Conventionsthaler” as currency with description being basically “1 Conventionsthaler = 120 Kreuzer = 144 Kreuzer Land Münze” but which could vary depending on issuer (cf Gulden, Heller etc), with date range for each of them :-)

This is going to take a while, given the number of states involved. Some have additional complexities which will need sorting out in their own threads. Here is (I hope) a full list of those Southern German states issuing Conventionthaler and Kreuzer Land Münze between 1800 and 1836, with suggested currency descriptions in italics. Once these are settled, I'll tackle the earlier issuers. Comments and corrections are very welcome.

 

Baden: Complicated overlap of different Thaler and Gulden, will start a separate thread.

 

Bavaria, Electorate: Change existing currency to

Conventionsthaler (1753-1806)

1 Conventionsthaler = 120 Kreuzer = 144 Kreuzer Land Münze = 576 Pfenning = 1152 Heller • 1 Goldgulden = 1½ Thaler • 1 Ducat = 2 Thaler • 1 Maximilian d'Or = 4½ Thaler

 

Bavaria, Kingdom: Change existing currency to

Conventionsthaler (1806-1837)

1 Conventionsthaler = 120 Kreuzer = 144 Kreuzer Land Münze = 576 Pfenning = 1152 Heller • 1 Kronenthaler = 1⅛ Conventionsthaler • 1 Ducat = 2¼ Conventionstaler

 

Hessen-Darmstadt: First, please merge the Landgraviate and Grand Duchy. Then change the existing Grand Duchy Thaler currency to

Conventionsthaler (1760-1837)

1 Conventionsthaler = 120 Kreuzer = 144 Kreuzer Land Münze = 576 Pfennig = 1152 Heller

Alter existing Gulden currency to

Gulden (1837-1872)

1 Gulden = 60 Kreuzer = 240 Pfennig = 480 Heller, 1¾ Gulden = 1 (Vereins)Thaler

 

Mainz: Add new currency

Conventionsthaler (1764-1803)

1 Conventionsthaler = 120 Kreuzer = 144 Kreuzer Land Münze = 576 Pfennig

 

Nassau: Change existing currency to

Conventionsthaler (1806-1837)

1 Conventionsthaler = 120 Kreuzer = 144 Kreuzer Land Münze

Add new currency

Gulden (1837-1872)

1 Gulden = 60 Kreuzer = 240 Pfennig = 480 Heller, 1¾ Gulden = 1 (Vereins)Thaler

 

Saxe-Coburg and Gotha: Alter existing currency starting 1826 to

Conventionsthaler (1826-1837)

1 Conventionsthaler = 120 Kreuzer = 144 Kreuzer Land Münze = 576 Pfennig

 

Saxe-Coburg-Saalfeld and Saxe-Hildburghausen: Complicated overlap of Kreuzer and Groschen, will start a separate thread.

 

Saxe-Meiningen: Alter existing currency to

Thaler (1680-1765)

Add new currencies

Conventionsthaler (1765-1837)

1 Conventionsthaler = 120 Kreuzer = 144 Kreuzer Land Münze = 576 Pfennig

and

Gulden (1837-1872)

1 Gulden = 60 Kreuzer = 240 Pfennig, 1¾ Gulden = 1 (Vereins)Thaler

 

Württemberg: First, please merge the Electorate and Kingdom. Then change the existing Thaler currency to

Conventionsthaler (1803-1824)

1 Conventionsthaler = 120 Kreuzer = 144 Kreuzer Land Münze

and add a new currency

Gulden (1824-1872)

1 Gulden = 60 Kreuzer = 240 Pfennig, 1¾ Gulden = 1 (Vereins)Thaler from 1837

Everything done (except transfer of landgraviate coins to grand duchy, if you can make requests please)