Greek Phoenix [Risolto]

Do we have the correct specifications for the Greek 1 phoenix? We give 3.87g of .943 silver, matching what's in SCWC. However, the Greek language Wikipedia page gives 4.163g of .900 silver whilst this AJN article gives a standard weight of 1⅜ drams (4.404g if the dram is 3.203g) with .900 fineness but then says the coins were later found to only contain 3.477g of silver. Finally, this analysis gives finenesses for three examples of just over .900 but sadly doesn't give the weights. (Of course, such an analysis only measures the surface of the coin.)

Pulling all this together, nothing's completely clear but what is noticeable is that 3.87g of .900 silver gives a silver content of 3.483g, close to that in the AJN article. Does anyone have any more information that might clarify things?

How come the currency is written as "Phoenix", when it on the coin says "Foinix"? It's pronounced the same, but why change the spelling?

Cita: "ngdawa"​How come the currency is written as "Phoenix", when it on the coin says "Foinix"? It's pronounced the same, but why change the spelling?

​It's from the Guidelines ( https://en.numista.com/numisdoc/articles/catalogue_guidelines.php ).

1.1: General Guidelines / Language: Use English unless otherwise specified.

Phoenix is English, Foinix isn't.

The explicit guidelines later on say the Face Value should be English (3.2.4), and the coin name should use Phoenix as the "Foinix" on the coin is actually "ΦΟΙΝΙΞ" and 3.2.1 says to use the English in the coin name when the text on the coin is in a non-Latin script.

Cita: "bjherbison"

Cita: "ngdawa"​How come the currency is written as "Phoenix", when it on the coin says "Foinix"? It's pronounced the same, but why change the spelling?

​​It's from the Guidelines ( https://en.numista.com/numisdoc/articles/catalogue_guidelines.php ).
​
​1.1: General Guidelines / Language: Use English unless otherwise specified.
​
​Phoenix is English, Foinix isn't.
​
​The explicit guidelines later on say the Face Value should be English (3.2.4), and the coin name should use Phoenix as the "Foinix" on the coin is actually "ΦΟΙΝΙΞ" and 3.2.1 says to use the English in the coin name when the text on the coin is in a non-Latin script.

​Whith this logic all Rufiyaa, Rupiah, Rupie, etc. should be changed to Rupee, since that's the English name.
All Krona, Krone, Króna, Korun, Korona, etc. should be changed to Crown, since that's the English name.
All Tala, Dala, Tolar, Thaler, etc. should be changed to Dollar, since that's the English name.

Just saying

Ngdawa is of course right that the guidelines are a nonsense. Since it's a Greek word, I'd prefer Phoinix but that's another discussion for another day.
I've dug further into this matter and can't find any evidence beyond SCWC for the .943 fineness. The weight is still unclear but, unless someone has better information, I'll request the fineness be changed to .900 and refer the referee to this discussion.

Cita: "ngdawa"​​​Whith this logic all Rufiyaa, Rupiah, Rupie, etc. should be changed to Rupee, since that's the English name.
​All Krona, Krone, Króna, Korun, Korona, etc. should be changed to Crown, since that's the English name.
​All Tala, Dala, Tolar, Thaler, etc. should be changed to Dollar, since that's the English name.
​
​Just saying

​You need to consult a good dictionary before you make that claim. I just checked one item -- the first item in your last list: Tala. The first Numista coin I found was Samoa KM# 7 1 Tala. https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces26570.html

The guidelines say "If the unabridged name of the currency unit is present on the coin in Latin script, then the name of the coin should show the currency unit in the language on the coin." so the coin name is correct as "1 Tala".

For the Face Value in word form the guidelines say "The currency should be specified in English.". I opened up my unabridged dictionary and found a definition for "tala" as the currency of Samoa, so the listing correctly uses "1 Tala" as the value and Tala as the currency.

I'm not saying the guidelines are perfect, but the vast English language doesn't require the massive renaming you suggested.

Cita: "bjherbison"

Cita: "ngdawa"​​​Whith this logic all Rufiyaa, Rupiah, Rupie, etc. should be changed to Rupee, since that's the English name.
​​All Krona, Krone, Króna, Korun, Korona, etc. should be changed to Crown, since that's the English name.
​​All Tala, Dala, Tolar, Thaler, etc. should be changed to Dollar, since that's the English name.
​​
​​Just saying

​I'm not saying the guidelines are perfect, but the vast English language doesn't require the massive renaming you suggested.

​I just want to be perfectly clear here: This is not a suggestion.

Again, for the record: This is not a massive renaming suggestion.

Cita: "ngdawa"​

Cita: "bjherbison"​

Cita: "ngdawa"​​​Whith this logic all Rufiyaa, Rupiah, Rupie, etc. should be changed to Rupee, since that's the English name.
​​​All Krona, Krone, Króna, Korun, Korona, etc. should be changed to Crown, since that's the English name.
​​​All Tala, Dala, Tolar, Thaler, etc. should be changed to Dollar, since that's the English name.
​​​
​​​Just saying
​
​

​​I'm not saying the guidelines are perfect, but the vast English language doesn't require the massive renaming you suggested.
​
​

​​I just want to be perfectly clear here: This is not a suggestion.
​
​Again, for the record: This is not a massive renaming suggestion.

​But as such you're right, but it would not become many of us, anyway numista is bizarre in many ways.

Cita: "ceh2019" Does anyone have any more information that might clarify things?

​Hello i've found this in the Stratoudakis' ellinika nomismata


The phoenix has a fineness of .900 and a weight of 4.47 g.

I'm glad I didn't request a change to the weight as that's at least four different weights given for this coin. It seems clear the weight was less than it was supposed to be. I guess the question is was there a fixed weight or did the coins end up having various weights?

Originally the phoenix was supposed to have a value of 60 lepta and there were multiple divisions and subdivisions planned but only 5 coins ended up being minted and the value of the phoenix changed to a 100 lepta so that probably ment a changed in the weight that was planned for the coin to have and the weight that the coin ended up having.

I'll need to translate the text of that but it looks very interesting, thanks. I've just checked and it looks like Stratoudakis is giving the weight of the first silver drachma for the phoenix. I'm pretty sure that's wrong. Both were supposed to be equal to a sixth of a Spanish dollar but neither actually achieved that, with the phoenix lighter than the drachma.

Cita: "ngdawa"​

Cita: "bjherbison"​

Cita: "ngdawa"​How come the currency is written as "Phoenix", when it on the coin says "Foinix"? It's pronounced the same, but why change the spelling?
​
​

​​​It's from the Guidelines ( https://en.numista.com/numisdoc/articles/catalogue_guidelines.php ).
​​
​​1.1: General Guidelines / Language: Use English unless otherwise specified.
​​
​​Phoenix is English, Foinix isn't.
​​
​​The explicit guidelines later on say the Face Value should be English (3.2.4), and the coin name should use Phoenix as the "Foinix" on the coin is actually "ΦΟΙΝΙΞ" and 3.2.1 says to use the English in the coin name when the text on the coin is in a non-Latin script.

​​Whith this logic all Rufiyaa, Rupiah, Rupie, etc. should be changed to Rupee, since that's the English name.
​All Krona, Krone, Króna, Korun, Korona, etc. should be changed to Crown, since that's the English name.
​All Tala, Dala, Tolar, Thaler, etc. should be changed to Dollar, since that's the English name.
​
​Just saying

​

We don't change currency unit names to ones that are not in official use.

The word 'Rufiyaa' is the one in both Divehi & English - especially on the banknotes since 1983, & on the coins since the 1970's for the Maldives.

Aidan.

My request to change the fineness has been accepted. I now wonder if we ought to add a comment as to why we think .900 is correct and not .943 as given by SCWC. Otherwise, I imagine it won't be long before some well meaning member requests the change be reversed. How would this sound?

There is some uncertainty regarding the weight and fineness of this coin. The weight shown here is that given by the Standard Catalog of World Coins but the fineness quoted there, .943, is considered to be an error, with most other sources recording it as .900, a value in agreement with elemental analysis of the surface. Regarding the weight, it is well recorded that these coins were found to have been produced below the expected standard but there is little agreement as to what weight the coins actually have.

Cita: "BCNumismatics"​We don't change currency unit names to ones that are not in official use.
​
​The word 'Rufiyaa' is the one in both Divehi & English - especially on the banknotes since 1983, & on the coins since the 1970's for the Maldives.
​
​Aidan.

​I think you missed my point ...

This is now done.