King George VI should be added to Ireland's banknote listings - 1936 to 1949.

King George VI should be added to Ireland's banknote listings - as he reigned from December 1936 to April 1949 as King of Ireland.

Aidan.

This has been discussed numerous times before. The claim is highly disputed and doing this would add nothing to the accuracy of our listings, since George VI appeared on no Irish coins or notes.

ceh2019

This has been discussed numerous times before. The claim is highly disputed and doing this would add nothing to the accuracy of our listings, since George VI appeared on no Irish coins or notes.

Well, Queen Elizabeth II's portrait isn't on Jamaica's decimal banknotes & coins - but she is Jamaica's head of state.

Aidan.

BCNumismatics

 

Well, Queen Elizabeth II's portrait isn't on Jamaica's decimal banknotes & coins - but she is Jamaica's head of state.

 

Aidan.

It used to be and no one disputes who is Jamaica's head of state. Neither of these two things can be said in relation to George VI and the Republic of Ireland.

Look here;

https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/bills/bill/1936/46/ .

here;

https://www.irishnewsarchive.com/wp/external-relations-act-12-december-1936 .

& here;

https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1948/nov/25/eire-relations-with-commonwealth .

Aidan.

Ireland had a president from 1938. Can you really claim that they weren't the head of state? The King retained a residual role "for the purposes of the appointment of diplomatic and consular representatives and the conclusion of international agreements".

ceh2019

Ireland had a president from 1938. Can you really claim that they weren't the head of state? The King retained a residual role "for the purposes of the appointment of diplomatic and consular representatives and the conclusion of international agreements".

The President of Ireland from 1938 to 1949 had no recognition outside Ireland - a bit like the 1970-79 position of President of Rhodesia.

Ireland was still inside the British Commonwealth until 18 April 1949 - therefore, King George VI was Ireland's head of state.

Aidan.

BCNumismatics

 

The President of Ireland from 1938 to 1949 had no recognition outside Ireland - a bit like the 1970-79 position of President of Rhodesia.

 

Ireland was still inside the British Commonwealth until 18 April 1949 - therefore, King George VI was Ireland's head of state.

 

Aidan.

Yet we list Rhodesia as a Republic from 1970. It's what happened inside Ireland that matters. By the way, what evidence is there that the President of Ireland wasn't recognized by other nations?

ceh2019

BCNumismatics

 

The President of Ireland from 1938 to 1949 had no recognition outside Ireland - a bit like the 1970-79 position of President of Rhodesia.

 

Ireland was still inside the British Commonwealth until 18 April 1949 - therefore, King George VI was Ireland's head of state.

 

Aidan.

Yet we list Rhodesia as a Republic from 1970. It's what happened inside Ireland that matters. By the way, what evidence is there that the President of Ireland wasn't recognized by other nations?

Rhodesia was de-jure a British colony.

The President of Ireland had NO role in foreign relations - as it was the King who had that role.

Aidan.

Both Rhodesia and southern Ireland were de facto republics in these periods. I still see no evidence that the Irish President wasn't recognized externally. Just because the Irish government asked the King to do some things doesn't imply the president was ignored internationally.

ceh2019

Both Rhodesia and southern Ireland were de facto republics in these periods. I still see no evidence that the Irish President wasn't recognized externally. Just because the Irish government asked the King to do some things doesn't imply the president was ignored internationally.

The President of Ireland served merely as a local replacement for the Governor-General of the Irish Free State.

It was the King who signed diplomatic documents - & anyone who was posted to Dublin had to go to London to have their diplomatic credentials seen & accepted by the King before proceeding to Dublin.

In diplomatic terms, the King was the head of state of Ireland - & his title was the same in Ireland as everywhere else in the British Commonwealth.

Aidan.

BCNumismatics

 

The President of Ireland served merely as a local replacement for the Governor-General of the Irish Free State.

 

It was the King who signed diplomatic documents - & anyone who was posted to Dublin had to go to London to have their diplomatic credentials seen & accepted by the King before proceeding to Dublin.

 

In diplomatic terms, the King was the head of state of Ireland - & his title was the same in Ireland as everywhere else in the British Commonwealth.

 

Aidan.

All rather contentious. Does the Irish constitution give the King a title? It does say this:

It is hereby declared and enacted that, so long as Saorstát Eireann is associated with the following nations, that is to say, Australia, Canada, Great Britain, New Zealand, and South Africa, and so long as the King recognised by those nations as the symbol of their co-operation continues to act on behalf of each of those nations (on the advice of the several Governments thereof) for the purposes of the appointment of diplomatic and consular representatives and the conclusion of international agreements, the King so recognised may, and is hereby authorised to, act on behalf of Saorstát Eireann for the like purposes as and when advised by the Executive Council so to do.

ceh2019

BCNumismatics

 

The President of Ireland served merely as a local replacement for the Governor-General of the Irish Free State.

 

It was the King who signed diplomatic documents - & anyone who was posted to Dublin had to go to London to have their diplomatic credentials seen & accepted by the King before proceeding to Dublin.

 

In diplomatic terms, the King was the head of state of Ireland - & his title was the same in Ireland as everywhere else in the British Commonwealth.

 

Aidan.

All rather contentious. Does the Irish constitution give the King a title? It does say this:

 

It is hereby declared and enacted that, so long as Saorstát Eireann is associated with the following nations, that is to say, Australia, Canada, Great Britain, New Zealand, and South Africa, and so long as the King recognised by those nations as the symbol of their co-operation continues to act on behalf of each of those nations (on the advice of the several Governments thereof) for the purposes of the appointment of diplomatic and consular representatives and the conclusion of international agreements, the King so recognised may, and is hereby authorised to, act on behalf of Saorstát Eireann for the like purposes as and when advised by the Executive Council so to do.

The King is mentioned in the External Relations Act 1936 itself - not in the 1937 Constitution.

Aidan.

With a title?

ceh2019

With a title?

His title was the same as elsewhere in the British Commonwealth.

Aidan.

Can you give us the text which says that?

More information here;

https://www.historyireland.com/ireland-1949-73-a-closet-member-of-the-commonwealth/ .

Aidan.

BCNumismatics

More information here;

 

https://www.historyireland.com/ireland-1949-73-a-closet-member-of-the-commonwealth/ .

 

Aidan.

That's not an Act of Parliament and doesn't seem to back up you claim about the King's title. I take it that nowhere in Irish legislation was George VI refered to as “King of Ireland” or anything similar.

ceh2019

BCNumismatics

More information here;

 

https://www.historyireland.com/ireland-1949-73-a-closet-member-of-the-commonwealth/ .

 

Aidan.

That's not an Act of Parliament and doesn't seem to back up you claim about the King's title. I take it that nowhere in Irish legislation was George VI refered to as “King of Ireland” or anything similar.

It is provided for in a British Act of Parliament passed in 1927, which you can read here;

https://www.heraldica.org/topics/britain/britstyles.htm#1927 .

Ireland is mentioned separately.

https://www.historyireland.com/leaving-the-commonwealth/ has more information about the Republic of Ireland Act, 1948 & it coming into effect on 18 April 1949.

Aidan.

But not in Irish legislation and in particular not after December 1936?

ceh2019

But not in Irish legislation and in particular not after December 1936?

British legislation was able to be extended to the Dominions until it ended in 1931 when the Statute of Westminster was enacted.

Even today, there is still some pre-1922 Acts of Parliament that are still in force in the Republic of Ireland - but there is a preposal to repeal them.

Aidan.

If you read the Irish legislation post December 1936, they are clearly distancing themselves from the concept of a “King of Ireland”. That's why they used the term “the King recognised by those nations”. You claim Ireland had a King but you provide no evidence.

ceh2019

If you read the Irish legislation post December 1936, they are clearly distancing themselves from the concept of a “King of Ireland”. That's why they used the term “the King recognised by those nations”. You claim Ireland had a King but you provide no evidence.

Ireland was still a Dominion inside the British Commonwealth - therefore, King George VI was King of Ireland, but not King in Ireland.

This was because of his usage in external relations.

Aidan.

BCNumismatics

 

Ireland was still a Dominion inside the British Commonwealth - therefore, King George VI was King of Ireland, but not King in Ireland.

 

This was because of his usage in external relations.

 

Aidan.

Let's assume that's all correct for a moment. If it is, Ireland didn't have a king internally, so there's no reason for us to have George VI as monarch when listing the internally issued coins and notes.

Of course there's no evidence George VI had the title "King of Ireland" but it just shows that, however we read the evidence, George VI has no place in our Republic of Ireland listings. 

ceh2019

BCNumismatics

 

Ireland was still a Dominion inside the British Commonwealth - therefore, King George VI was King of Ireland, but not King in Ireland.

 

This was because of his usage in external relations.

 

Aidan.

Let's assume that's all correct for a moment. If it is, Ireland didn't have a king internally, so there's no reason for us to have George VI as monarch when listing the internally issued coins and notes.

Of course there's no evidence George VI had the title "King of Ireland" but it just shows that, however we read the evidence, George VI has no place in our Republic of Ireland listings. 

King George VI was King of Ireland, as only Dominions were members of the British Commonwealth - until the London Declaration came into effect just over a week after the Republic of Ireland was declared.

From 18 April 1949, Ireland no longer had the King as head of state - as the President of Ireland (Sean T. O'Kelly) was upgraded to being a full head of state, as the external relations power was vested in the President under the Republic of Ireland Act.

Aidan.

BCNumismatics

 

King George VI was King of Ireland, as only Dominions were members of the British Commonwealth - until the London Declaration came into effect just over a week after the Republic of Ireland was declared.

 

Show us one piece of legislation where the term “King of Ireland” exists in this context. Otherwise, all you have is a series of unlinked statements that add up to nothing.

Here;

https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Royal_and_Parliamentary_Titles_Act_1927 .

Aidan.

No, the title “King of Ireland” does not appear in that act. It also predates George VI by nearly ten years.

ceh2019

No, the title “King of Ireland” does not appear in that act. It also predates George VI by nearly ten years.

King George V was declared King of Great Britain, Ireland, & the British Dominions in that Act.

Therefore, he was King of Ireland, as was King Edward VIII & King George VI.

The 1927 Act was actually replaced by a new Act in 1953, which eliminated references to Ireland.

Aidan.

BCNumismatics

 

King George V was declared King of Great Britain, Ireland, & the British Dominions in that Act.

 

Therefore, he was King of Ireland, as was King Edward VIII & King George VI.

 

The 1927 Act was actually replaced by a new Act in 1953, which eliminated references to Ireland.

 

Aidan.

That doesn't follow logically and doesn't support you claim for the title “King of Ireland”. The fact that British legislation took many years to recognize the changes in Ireland didn't make George VI “King of Ireland”. You might as well ask for George I to listed as a monarch for France, since his titles (in Britain) included “King of France”.

There is also another Act that will interest you;

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crown_of_Ireland_Act_1542 .

It was repealed in 1962 through this;

https://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1962/act/29/enacted/en/print.html .

Aidan.

BCNumismatics

There is also another Act that will interest you;

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crown_of_Ireland_Act_1542 .

 

It was repealed in 1962 through this;

 

https://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1962/act/29/enacted/en/print.html .

 

Aidan.

A bit better. At least “King of Ireland” appears in the 1542 Act. However, this title was superceded by the Act of Union, 1800, so it has no bearing on George VI.

ceh2019

BCNumismatics

There is also another Act that will interest you;

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crown_of_Ireland_Act_1542 .

 

It was repealed in 1962 through this;

 

https://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1962/act/29/enacted/en/print.html .

 

Aidan.

A bit better. At least “King of Ireland” appears in the 1542 Act. However, this title was superceded by the Act of Union, 1800, so it has no bearing on George VI.

The Act of Union 1800 is still in force in Northern Ireland - but has been repealed in the Republic of Ireland though.

Aidan.

BCNumismatics

 

The Act of Union 1800 is still in force in Northern Ireland - but has been repealed in the Republic of Ireland though.

 

Aidan.

How does that advance your argument that the title “King of Ireland” existed between 1936 and 1949?

Watch this;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X4cwngHVJpo .

It is a shame I can't upload videos directly without having to post an external link.

Aidan.

Theoretically, he was King between 1936 and 1937. But we have this matter settled already.

Jarcek

Theoretically, he was King between 1936 and 1937. But we have this matter settled already.

It is incorrect to have the Republic starting in 1937 - when it was declared on 18 April 1949.

King George VI had external relations functions until 1949.

Aidan.

Yes, external. That is no power over banknote issuing.

Jarcek

Yes, external. That is no power over banknote issuing.

Currency issuance in Ireland under King George VI's reign in Ireland was by the Currency Commission until 1942, then by the Central Bank of Ireland afterwards.

Aidan.

More evidence can be found here;

https://rulers.org/ruli.html#ireland .

Mentions that King George VI was still Ireland's head of state - exercising foreign relations powers.

Aidan.

ceh2019

This has been discussed numerous times before. The claim is highly disputed and doing this would add nothing to the accuracy of our listings, since George VI appeared on no Irish coins or notes.

Check out this video of the proclamation of King George VI's accession in 1936;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lIP6OSsnI0Q .

Ireland is directly mentioned as one of the Dominions that had the King as head of state.

Aidan.

ceh2019

BCNumismatics

 

The Act of Union 1800 is still in force in Northern Ireland - but has been repealed in the Republic of Ireland though.

 

Aidan.

How does that advance your argument that the title “King of Ireland” existed between 1936 and 1949?

Have a look here;

https://www.archontology.org/nations/eire/irishfreestate/01exauthority.php .

King George VI is mentioned there.

Aidan.

BCNumismatics

 

Have a look here;

 

https://www.archontology.org/nations/eire/irishfreestate/01exauthority.php .

 

King George VI is mentioned there.

 

Aidan.

Yes, this is what it says:

Having ceased to be the head of state of Ireland, the British king (sc. George VI) continued to exercise the executive power in connection with external relations for appointment of diplomatic representatives and conclusion of international agreements.

It couldn't be any clearer. Can we close this now?

ceh2019

BCNumismatics

 

Have a look here;

 

https://www.archontology.org/nations/eire/irishfreestate/01exauthority.php .

 

King George VI is mentioned there.

 

Aidan.

Yes, this is what it says:

Having ceased to be the head of state of Ireland, the British king (sc. George VI) continued to exercise the executive power in connection with external relations for appointment of diplomatic representatives and conclusion of international agreements.

It couldn't be any clearer. Can we close this now?

That is in reference to the External Relations Act - King George VI was still King of Ireland until 1949, but he no longer had a role inside Ireland, as he no longer had a viceregal representative there.

He still had some power in relation to Ireland's external relations, but this was exercised upon the advice of the Government in Dublin.

Anyone posted as a diplomat in Ireland had to go to London to have their credentials documents signed off by the King before preceding to Dublin.

Irish diplomats posted in other countries also had to have their credentials documents signed off by the King in London as well.

If that isn't one of the functions of a head of state, then what is it?

To me, it is one of the functions of a head of state - therefore, King George VI was Ireland's head of state as King of Ireland.

Aidan.

Sorry but that simply isn't logical. The head of state was clearly the President, as stated in the constitution. Just because one minor role was being fulfilled by someone else doesn't suddenly make them the head of state instead of the President. You've had this same claim rejected again and agian. I don't see anything new here.

ceh2019

Sorry but that simply isn't logical. The head of state was clearly the President, as stated in the constitution. Just because one minor role was being fulfilled by someone else doesn't suddenly make them the head of state instead of the President. You've had this same claim rejected again and agian. I don't see anything new here.

Doesn't change the fact that the Republic was not declared until 18 April 1949, when the Republic of Ireland Act, 1948 came into effect.

Legally, & externally from  29 December 1937 to 17 April 1949, Ireland was an independent Dominion inside the British Commonwealth. President Douglas Hyde & President Sean T. O'Kelly had NO recognition at all outside Ireland until 1949, when President O'Kelly became Ireland's first full head of state - as external relations powers were transferred from the King under the Republic of Ireland Act.

Under the rules at the time, British Commonwealth members had to have the reigning monarch (King George VI) as their head of state.

This was changed in 1949 with the London Declaration allowing for British Commonwealth membership for republics & native monarchies, as India was about to become a republic, but did not want to lose its membership of the British Commonwealth as from 26 January 1950.

Aidan.

None of those arguments stand up to scrutiny. Ireland had a republic form of government from 1937, regardless of whether or not the title “Republic” was used. Ireland's Presidents were recognized internally (which is what really matters) and externally. There's no evidence to the contrary. There were no “rules” regarding Commonwealth membership, simply traditions and conventions. Remember, the British “constitution” doesn't exist as a written set of rules.

You've tried all these arguments in the past and failed to convince anyone. Can't we focus on something else?

Have a read here;

https://www.royal.uk/the-commonwealth .

& here;

https://www.britannica.com/topic/Commonwealth-association-of-states .

Aidan.

BCNumismatics

Have a read here;

 

https://www.royal.uk/the-commonwealth .

 

& here;

 

https://www.britannica.com/topic/Commonwealth-association-of-states .

 

Aidan.

The first site doesn't mention Ireland at all, the second one says nothing about Ireland's head of state. What was it on these sites that backs up your claim?

ceh2019

BCNumismatics

Have a read here;

 

https://www.royal.uk/the-commonwealth .

 

& here;

 

https://www.britannica.com/topic/Commonwealth-association-of-states .

 

Aidan.

The first site doesn't mention Ireland at all, the second one says nothing about Ireland's head of state. What was it on these sites that backs up your claim?

There is mention of the membership rules of the British Commonwealth until 1949, which required that members had to have had the King as head of state.

Ireland was therefore a British Commonwealth member state - as it was still a Dominion of the Crown, & Irish citizens were still subjects of the King.

Aidan.

Ireland is directly mentioned here;

https://www.commonwealthofnations.org/commonwealth/history .

Aidan.

BCNumismatics

Ireland is directly mentioned here;

 

https://www.commonwealthofnations.org/commonwealth/history .

 

Aidan.

 

 

All it says is that Ireland withdrew in 1949.

BCNumismatics

There is mention of the membership rules of the British Commonwealth until 1949, which required that members had to have had the King as head of state.

 

Ireland was therefore a British Commonwealth member state - as it was still a Dominion of the Crown, & Irish citizens were still subjects of the King.

 

Aidan.

No it doesn't. The word “membership” and the phrase “head of state” are not on that web page.

As we're talking about banknotes, are they an internal issue (I think they are, as they are only printed for the internal market) or are they intended for external of Ireland.

Irish banknotes from this era, circulated to a small degree in Northern Ireland, and occasionally in Britain. The Irish Pound was linked at parity with Sterling. English, Scottish, and Northern Ireland notes also circulated in small quantities in the Irish Free State. Some background info here: https://www.irishpapermoney.com/history/hist0.html