Sales on Numista [Risolto]

Hello,

A message was recently posted on the forum about sales occurring on Numista in place of swaps. The posts was naming some members, which led to an unhealthy discussion. I deleted it and I prefer opening this new topic instead.

Currently, sales via the swap system are forbidden by the Terms of Use, section 8.2.4. The reason is twofold:

• Facilitating sales between members make Numista a marketplace. In France, marketplaces have numerous legal obligations, which Numista is not ready to comply with. And I didn't even consider the regulations in all the other countries where Numista is used.
• I would like to encourage swaps, following the vision of exchange and community that I have for Numista. Unless they are well separated from swaps, sales will probably have a negative effect on swaps.

Sale posts are currently tolerated on the forum under restrictive conditions so it serves only as an exceptional facility for active members making swaps on Numista. The conditions are explained in the forum policy.

In this topic, I would like to debate

1. whether we should enforce (control) better the ban of sales on the swap platform
2. whether we should completely ban sale posts from the forum

Here I'm copy-pasting some opinions which were previously posted on the now deleted forum topic.

crruisercharlie

I remember how excited l was when I first found numista.A site where people actually traded coins and helped each other in a great hobby (addiction) Now I'm beginning to think it's just a waste of time because it's turned into another ebay

 

I guess it has to do with how mercenary the site has become. You request a TRADE and first thing requested is all your silver. Then they tell you" I can't really find anything on your list but I'd be happy to sell you all these coins…COME ON NOW! I have over 1000 coins on my swap list and there's not even one coin??? Guess I just stick with ebay- at least they're up front and know how to grade

13coinmike

the problem is I have some very very SCARCE coins, but I get request's all the time asking to sell.

I look at their list and find maybe 3 or 4 coins worth $12.

they picked 1 coin worth $120

now what?

I guess deny the trade, and tell them I will post it for sale and we can proceed, CRAZY!

or I can say “hold On” let me post the remainder $108 for sale, and only accept your request!

or can I flag this trade for public auction on sales list? I mean, weird?

 

It really stinks for collectors that want something more, for both sides, it just stagnates the situation.

..so low grade holders keep trading low grade coins, and hi grade holders are extra stuck, trying to negotiate for low grade coins, great!

Xavier

I personally would be in favour of simply forbidding sale posts on the forum.

smvdbrink

I strongly agree with this. If you want to sell, go to eBay.

Jarcek

We should probably just place full ban on selling on forum.

imreh

The last thing we all want is legal trouble, I guess.

Be tougher with members, who wish to use Numista as their shop.

 

On another thought, it shall be okay to say “Look folks what I have for sale on eBay, maybe you're interested”? - or not?

JRo69

I have bought coins from several members of this site. In one instance, there was no way I had the swap value in coins in exchange for the coin I purchased. All sales were fairly conducted.

I see no problem with people on this site selling coins to other members and people buying coins from other members. If members can't participate in a fair and equitable sale for both parties, they shouldn't, but let those of us who can, do so.

Dejan

Buying is sometimes the only option to get coins we need, so - as long as both parties agree - I see no problem in selling coins on Numista. 

#1

..

Shipping costs become prohibitive, for coins without great value, buying is the best solution. When you send a lot of 10 euros and you  pay 10 euros for sending registered …

For very high price coins it's also difficult to find any coin for a swap.

"Buying" and "selling" are not bad words.

It's the basis of other websites like Youcoins which don't make any difference between exchange and purchase, even if at the moment with Russia it's a bit blocked ...

There are few countries where it's almost impossible to swap (Transnistria, Nepal, Uzbekistan, etc…) when you are in contact with a Numista member of these countries, you just buy coins.

Then you have exemple of collectors that quit collecting  (old age, illness, etc…), what's the difference between posting their Hybay account on Numista or selling on Numista.

Many collectors publish price of coins in comments, would you tell them OK to publish the price but NOT OK to sell …

I agree that there may be legal implications for a site that claims selling as the primary reason of its existence, but Numista has always favored swaps.
I also note that the habits and customs of the forum on the English side (swaps & trades) and French (Exchanges) are significantly different, on the English side we are less shy to talk about money

In this topic, I would like to debate

1. whether we should enforce (control) better the ban of sales on the swap platform
2. whether we should completely ban sale posts from the forum

 

Personally, I don't think we should “ban” or “control” sales.  Ridiculous idea.

A few points:

1. “NUMISTA, a French simplified joint-stock company with a single shareholder……” (the 1st 10 words of the Terms of Use)

I'm assuming you are the “single shareholder”,  Xavier.  No doubt I would feel differently if I were you.

2. I know we're not all adults here but, let the transactions (swap / sell / variation) play out.  It's called learning, which I believe is healthy for the hobby.  I've certainly learned my lessons.

3. Lastly, if you invest time and money into this hobby, how long does it take to realize there are far better platforms for reaching your goals?  No disrespect, this is my go-to database which is always open on my browser.  But for reaching my collecting goals, far to time consuming.

A immediat vision of the future : https://en.numista.com/forum/topic122238.html

I warrned of the inevitable from the beginning and at the time some of my protests were deleted for being “unhealthy” and I named no one in particular. It was the sales policy generally.  I even suggested a separate forum for sales if  Numista were to allow sales so that those that did want to shop could go there.  No one should take this personally but just look at the “SWAP” board.  It has looked like a sales board for far too long and I am sick and tired of being sold on what was intended to be a swap site.  So much for occasional or exceptional circumstances. Give them an inch and they want a mile. There are myriad places to go to purchase and shop for coins and at one time Numista was a refuge away from that . Sadly, no longer. 

harryg

I warrned of the inevitable from the beginning and at the time some of my protests were deleted for being “unhealthy” and I named no one in particular. It was the sales policy generally.  I even suggested a separate forum for sales if  Numista were to allow sales so that those that did want to shop could go there.  No one should take this personally but just look at the “SWAP” board.  It has looked like a sales board for far too long and I am sick and tired of being sold on what was intended to be a swap site.  So much for occasional or exceptional circumstances. Give them an inch and they want a mile. There are myriad places to go to purchase and shop for coins and at one time Numista was a refuge away from that . Sadly, no longer. 

Hear hear!

Le meilleur moyen est de prendre une table pour le pratique et une chaise pour le confort. Puis de s'installer sur le troittoir ou au bistrot du coin, sinon dans un endroit bien fréquenté et il n'y aura aucun frais de port.

Pourquoi vouloir que Numista offre l'abri et le couvert ?

edit translate:

The best way is to take a table for practice and a chair for comfort. Then settle on the sidewalk or at the local bistro, otherwise in a well-frequented place and there will be no shipping costs.

Why do you want Numista to provide shelter and cover?

.

I agree there should be a separate sales forum or shop were members who have enough swaps (under their belt) to comply with the current sales policy can use it and should be only visible to Numista members to browse and only the “approved members” can initiate sales through the shop.

Also we all know about googles I'm not a robot puzzles we receive periodically, maybe we can use that when someone signs up or when we find suspected bot accounts so legitimate users won't need to do them unless they behave in a algorithm that doesn't comply with forum policies.

Finally if a Numista sales feature is approved we all need to agree on a user friendly layout.

My humble myself is not waving the flag for this one. Thinking of, I spent tons of hours here updating pages, adding new stuff in the end for Numista to become another eBay? If so, I want allowance for it, for each coin/token/note I added, I would like 1% of the sales price, can be added to my virtual Numista bank (I am sure this will have a profound change on people participating more). Also I don't think the Numista has funds to cover expenses when things go wrong like eBay and I am sure they will, out there there is a whole lot of fraudulent chaps, just waiting for something where they can try their luck.

LP

What is the advantage of formalizing - with the need for organization, monitoring, control and compliance - a practice that already exists?
An exchange of an old coin for currencies that are legal tender can already be considered a sale. It is negotiated in private, without any formalities to be completed or any fees to be paid to anyone. On the one hand it is the transfer of a historical heritage, on the other a flight of capital. It is no longer numismatics, it is up to everyone to manage their specialty as well as possible.
Note that at the beginning and end of this subject you can only tick 'for' or 'Stop notifications about new replies', it only draws attention.

Most of the time I swap, but it has happened that I have also bought coins on numista. I even had two hybrid swap/sales (coins for coins + cash) on the French site, concerning tenths of kilos  of my surplus coins not fitting into my doubles list nor in my cellar.

I haven't any scruples about that, and it doesn't make numista into another EBay either (just my opinion)

I have bought multiple coins through this website from other members and it has been a great experience. I would not want an outright ban of sales, but rather continued moderation through the rules established already or perhaps new rules if needed. This does not feel like eBay and even if people post sales it does not cheapen The site, I think plenty of people are still swapping. I would like to continue to be able to swap Coins and buy them when a swap does not work out or cannot be accomplished. 

Regardless of people's experiences with sales (both positive and negative), we should ban them. I would rather see them gone then see Numista get in legal trouble.

Sjoelund

I haven't any scruples about that, and it doesn't make numista into another EBay either (just my opinion)

+1

Its great to see @Sjoelund (& others) express that they've enjoyed decent swaps. It is nice to know it works.

I was really surprised at the title of the previous thread (comparing this site to an online marketplace) b/c I have never viewed Numista even remotely similar to eBay.  I wasn't going to comment either b/c in the 2 years since I joined I have had 13 declined swap offers. This is primarily b/c every party who requested swaps didn't bother to read my interests (& their few notes were circulated from countries I don't collect). I have reached out with 3-4 swap requests & the 1 member who accepted sent me circulated notes (described as UNC) but fortunately we cancelled the transaction after I sent his notes back (all parties happy/all good). 

If a swap actually materializes, great - if not, then there's always the forum to participate in. I have never used any 1 site to build my collection & doubt that I ever will. It is nice to keep inventory & have the reference catalogue Numista offers too!

No sales b/c I follow the rules. I don't understand why the odd private sale must be banned but it won't affect me either way since I don't sell here.  These are just my “2 cents.”

 The question asked is::

XavierHello,

 

;;;/;;;

 

In this topic, I would like to debate

1. whether we should enforce (control) better the ban of sales on the swap platform
2. whether we should completely ban sale posts from the forum

With information before.

There are two types of sellers: occasional and “professional”. In France, you can only sell in flea markets twice a year without being a professional. Monitoring is also carried out on (and by) dedicated sites.

I'm for answer 1.

Ps: Numista being international, except to have to control the nationalities on each transaction, the regulations of the most restrictive nation may apply.

Some_Nerd

Regardless of people's experiences with sales (both positive and negative), we should ban them. I would rather see them gone then see Numista get in legal trouble.

So I guess a deciding factor would be if there is or has been any legal trouble, or potential threat of such. Sure, I agree I wouldn’t want anyone getting into legal issues, but my question is how likely is that to happen? If there is a real possibility then ban Sales. If there isn’t, then I think stricter enforcement of the rules in place would work fine

Stupendousman35

 how likely is that to happen? If there is a real possibility 

Pour le savoir et être rassuré il faudrait poser la question à nos autorités respectives, on saurait ainsi quelle attitude adopter

this whole article is a good read and very related to this issue

https://en.numista.com/forum/topic119095.html#p972463

I more agree with “the spirit of the law”

What do some profiteers under the guise of collector not understand about occasional and exceptional circumstances? 

harryg

I warrned of the inevitable from the beginning and at the time some of my protests were deleted for being “unhealthy” and I named no one in particular. It was the sales policy generally.  I even suggested a separate forum for sales if  Numista were to allow sales so that those that did want to shop could go there.  No one should take this personally but just look at the “SWAP” board.  It has looked like a sales board for far too long and I am sick and tired of being sold on what was intended to be a swap site.  So much for occasional or exceptional circumstances. Give them an inch and they want a mile. There are myriad places to go to purchase and shop for coins and at one time Numista was a refuge away from that . Sadly, no longer. 

My thoughts also

If someone requested a swap, but didn't have the coins that his swap-partner needs, why shall it be prohibited to request to buy the coins he needs? Who can win with such restriction?

Numista is not designed for regular sales and for someone who sells professionally it is far not the best place. This is the same as a service that provides a possibility of messaging, you can't blame the platform for something that 2 people agreed using it. Numista receives no commission or other profit. I see legal risks for Numista are close to 0.

With this logic any swap that involves legal tender coins shall be prohibited 

Grinya

If someone requested a swap, but didn't have the coins that his swap-partner needs, why shall it be prohibited to request to buy the coins he needs? Who can win with such restriction?

 

That is completely logical and reflects the reality of today!

Grinya

If someone requested a swap, but didn't have the coins that his swap-partner needs, why shall it be prohibited to request to

Request to purchase after the fact and solicitations for sale are two different things.

I, Totally Disagree

I just couldn't Swap on My Side,

The Postage Fee is Around 23 USD

I could just buy Coins & Banknotes,

Although I agree, that Flooding the Forum is Also Not Correct

But, Instead, We can Pin the Sellers on the Swap & Trades Section,

BTW, The Name itself mentions “ Swap & Trades  ”

Please don't Ban Selling

Best Regards,

Amraan Amjad

13coinmike has left the building.  I guess some members have gotten what they wanted.  It's a shame.

#1

For what its worth, I'm very new at this despite being a longtime lurker and use Numista to help track my collection while scoping out points of interest.  This is my first post on Numista and I've been lurking off and on for a few years.

I have no coin grading experience and wouldn't be able to accurately do this myself.  I actually just purchased some coins from 13coinmike this month, my first transaction here despite lurking for years, and he was incredibly friendly and fair.  I got some coins I couldn't trade for because frankly, I have common stuff and no real ability to determine its quality, probably nothing that would strike his interest.  I had a great experience and got see how an enthusiast graded their coins.  I acquired coins, but I also got a bit of research done.      

I wouldn't have discovered him unless I saw his post advertising his coins.  I did my research, he had a ton of coins, numerous postings and a ton of ratings.  Its saddening that he's stepped away, he was very patient with helping me learn the process and I regret that others won't be able to have that experience.

I get that Numista is not a substitute for ebay, but if it forgoes the ability to arrange a purchase between members, I'm a bit at a loss.  I don't have decent coins to trade, I'm just trying to build my collection (albeit slowly) through reputable enthusiasts.  LCS are rare, they are few and far between and the ones that exist lack the wide range of eclectic coins that members on this site have.  It would be incredibly sad and disheartening to lose the ability to identify or purchase from the enthusiasts that congregate on this site.      

Thank you for your time.

rsirian1

13coinmike has left the building.  I guess some members have gotten what they wanted.  It's a shame.

Really is a shame, I higly regret that🤢

Sjoelund

rsirian1

13coinmike has left the building.  I guess some members have gotten what they wanted.  It's a shame.

Really is a shame, I higly regret that🤢

Indeed.  I have had many a pleasant conversation with Mike during my short time here.

Slipstreamed

Sjoelund

rsirian1

13coinmike has left the building.  I guess some members have gotten what they wanted.  It's a shame.

Really is a shame, I higly regret that🤢

Indeed.  I have had many a pleasant conversation with Mike during my short time here.

+1 

&

(#5 with that sentiment). 

Too bad some super squeaky wheels get all the attention & exaggerate to spoil an otherwise well-functioning cart. 

Serial_Number_8

Slipstreamed

Sjoelund

rsirian1

 

 

Too bad some super squeaky wheels get all the attention & exaggerate to spoil an otherwise well-functioning cart. 

What super squeaky wheels get all the attention and exactly what was exaggerated? Only people with different opinions than yours? How would you know what is being exaggerated?  The subject is about sales. Are they to be allowed or not and if so, how to regulate it. Once again the board turns toxic and about individuals implied, overtly, or covertly and not about the topic at hand. 

Personally I am against banning sales, there are numerous members who live in countries where trading is pretty much impossible because of shipping. There are also many new collectors who don't have the coins to swap for higher end coins. I think a separate fourm be added for sales or even just a list of verified sellers on the website.

So, #1!

For the record, I always have been and still am for limited, highly regulated, occasional sales only by trusted and established collectors and members of Numista. The criteria was too loose and not enforced consistantly. The issue I have is some have exploited, abused, and manipulated the attempt at allowing for sales in every imaginable and conceivable way. I warned of this eventuality long ago. Better and strict policy enforcement is the only way forward if Numista decides to continue to allow limited sales and only on a separate forum if at all possible. 

Have a nice day colleagues and watch out for the weather.

       As always, just a sudden idea that needs to be developed, legally consulted and given a framework.

Colleagues, my opinion is the opposite - let's turn the problem into a benefit for the community: let's not deny the fact that our main hobby is buying coins and their function in history.

Who keeps thousands of tons of invalid coins in circulation? Holders are mainly collectors. 

Just add us a sales window, next to ,, Swaps,,       VIP access-paying member.   (Legal protection: agreement after reading the rules that the "numist" is not responsible for the legal consequences of community members and their activities in the VIP window-,everyone checks that they agree when entering the community sale) -consult this

There are two platforms in the window,  the first is a seller from his collection, long-term offers by the kilo, auctions even from a dollar for time (we are playful)-   who is the seller after all, a member after a year on the site, he has exchanges with the trust of others and mainly accepts payment and then sends coins.

The buyer is anyone who can enter there after paying the membership   ( even those crazy thieves who want to sell a coin for a dollar from China with the story that it is an inheritance from grandfather's sailor who saved someone's life in Yokohama at the port)

let him pay the entrance and find out that he can't sell anything there, but after sending the required amount, I will send him 1/2 kg of coins that I have extra or 10 kg for a slightly higher price for 10 dollars.

But let's start with reality:

everyone is against us. Where a young or budding numismatist can buy his first coins? Sales sites are against us, post offices rip us off, and customs are sometimes demanded.

We prefer community, free online banking....in EU and America and I don't know where else it has reach....I have it for 5 years,,
 the account is free on the site and insured for hundreds of thousands - free transfers between friends in seconds, the best exchange rate in the world.

We will help ourselves, the,, numista,, becomes a premium, collectors who want cheap coins with confidence.

However, legal protection comes first.

And now me, please, I still need a lot of US 1 cent coins, I love them, and I just wanted to buy them here at ,,13coinmike,,

Only the shipping cost of 20-30 USD from the USA discouraged me and I also wanted to ask a member in Germany with military mail that I will pay the tracking and costs (as a veteran) and buy from him as well, but I keep putting it off,, let's give him space,,13coinmike ,, for a ton of coins and I'll also put 1 kg of Czechoslovakia on sale for 15 and I'll leave the offer there for the whole year.

Hi Ivan

rsirian1

13coinmike has left the building.  I guess some members have gotten what they wanted.  It's a shame.

I don't think there are members that wanted to see him gone. I could do without all the drama however… Every once in a while he got [upset], removing old posts, threatening to leave.

[Moderated]

Hello,

I decided to completely ban sales from the Numista forum. 

The forum policy has been updated accordingly:

Sales or inducements to sell are prohibited. Promoting or indicating sales or purchases through forum signatures or member profile descriptions is also not permitted.

It's true that not every collection can be developed with swaps only. Swaps require that both parties are interested in each other's coins and that the value is balanced. This usually works best for low-value coins. If you wish to buy and sell, I recommend other ways, like visiting local coin dealers, using marketplaces like eBay, Delcampe or Catawiki, or trading with auction houses.
Handling sales is not part of the core values of Numista and the legal implications are too important for an organization like Numista.

Xavier

Hello,

 

I decided to completely ban sales from the Numista forum. 

 

The forum policy has been updated accordingly:

Sales or inducements to sell are prohibited. Promoting or indicating sales or purchases through forum signatures or member profile descriptions is also not permitted.

 

It's true that not every collection can be developed with swaps only. Swaps require that both parties are interested in each other's coins and that the value is balanced. This usually works best for low-value coins. If you wish to buy and sell, I recommend other ways, like visiting local coin dealers, using marketplaces like eBay, Delcampe or Catawiki, or trading with auction houses.
Handling sales is not part of the core values of Numista and the legal implications are too important for an organization like Numista.

So, Does this Completely Ban Sales?

I can't use eBay because I don't need their concoction of coins & banknotes, Instead, I want to Choose them.

I agree with placing a ban on inducing sales on the forum.

But, Not with placing a Complete Banning them.

I have just brought once in Numista, that too without the help of the forum.

I need to buy from Numista because the Seller doesn't have an eBay account, So, This means No More New Coins for Me.

Therefore, I would request the Board to Re-Consider the Ban & Lift it.

Best Regards,

Amraan Amjad

Amraan Amjad

Xavier

Hello,

 

I decided to completely ban sales from the Numista forum. 

 

The forum policy has been updated accordingly:

Sales or inducements to sell are prohibited. Promoting or indicating sales or purchases through forum signatures or member profile descriptions is also not permitted.

 

 

So, Does this Completely Ban Sales?

 

That ship has sailed son.

Xavier

Hello,

 

I decided to completely ban sales from the Numista forum. 

 

The forum policy has been updated accordingly:

Sales or inducements to sell are prohibited. Promoting or indicating sales or purchases through forum signatures or member profile descriptions is also not permitted.

 

It's true that not every collection can be developed with swaps only. Swaps require that both parties are interested in each other's coins and that the value is balanced. This usually works best for low-value coins. If you wish to buy and sell, I recommend other ways, like visiting local coin dealers, using marketplaces like eBay, Delcampe or Catawiki, or trading with auction houses.
Handling sales is not part of the core values of Numista and the legal implications are too important for an organization like Numista.

Thank you Xavier. WhenI first started the other post I was I was pretty depressed with the way things were getting to be here. I have nothing against people buying and selling coins…on the proper platforms  I both buy and sell on ebay - have been since 2005- because that is the intended purpose of the site. I've kept it that way on purpose. Again-I want to commend you on this decision and for preserving a great TRADING site 

Xavier

Hello,

 

I decided to completely ban sales from the Numista forum. 

A sensible policy for numista, imho.

Thanks Xavier. In the end, I think it is the right choice for many reasons.

I believe that this is the right decision. Perhaps it would be a good idea to pin a message to the swaps forum announcing this.

It's a decision.  Better than sitting on the fence I suppose.

Question:  When does hiring for the “Sales Police” start?

Some_Nerd

Perhaps it would be a good idea to pin a message to the swaps forum announcing this.

Done here.

Just to get it right: Sales are prohibited in the forum (totally agree on that point)

But this does not mean, that in order to “equalize” swaps to get the desired coins without having the same amount of interesting coins is still not forbidden, right? I am not talking about professionally trade coins on the swap function, it is more about “one factor in a swap negotiation”

Correct?

caesar1990

Just to get it right: Sales are prohibited in the forum (totally agree on that point)

 

But this does not mean, that in order to “equalize” swaps to get the desired coins without having the same amount of interesting coins is still not forbidden, right? I am not talking about professionally trade coins on the swap function, it is more about “one factor in a swap negotiation”

 

Correct?

That could not possibly be enforced.  If two people want to agree on a swap without making it publicly known money is also exchanging hands with the coins, no one can stop them, as there would be no way for them to know.

Hibernia

Xavier

Hello,

 

I decided to completely ban sales from the Numista forum. 

A sensible policy for numista, imho.

Absolutely.

None of us wants french legal troubles, to start with; 

plus the spirit of the site - I guess - shall remain educational and support collectors to exchange for their own pleasure, rather than monetary gain.

If for whatever reason - like becoming older and no heir to the hobby is in sight, or financial troubles, etc. - you need to sell your collection, there are a lot of options, as mentioned above.

Also, there is a Numista members group on facebook, where you can announce your intentions and let Zuckerberg bear the consequences. :)

Hey!  Thanks for that info as I wasn't aware of the site rules and details.  Definitely good to know as I don't want to break any rules or cause any issues.  Definitely appreciate you letting me know!