Honohan (2009) suggests that the Irish pound can be traced back to 1460, when the Drogheda Parliament reduced the silver content of the penny in Ireland by 20%.
If it's NOT an Irish pound before this, was it the Penny in the Hiberno-Norse era? Or the English pound?
And was it the English pound from John to 1460? I am aware that some (most? all?) of the coinage during this period was struck to English standards.
Under King John, Irish coins were minted in locations like Kilkenny, Limerick and Carrickfergus. They were easily distinguishable from their English equivalents. Not only were their weights and designs different, a triangle (rather than a circle) outlined the reigning monarch’s head.
By “English standards” I meant the silver content. The design would not need to be the same.
If there were a period when Irish coins were struck under English ruling authorities, and the silver content of each denomination was the same as the English counterpart, then it would be reasonable to ask if the English pound were the correct currency.
I don't have access to Spink at the moment, but I think he discusses in which reigns these conditions were met.
1. ca850-997. Vikings made use of imported coinage. 2. Viking Period. 997-ca1150 (First coins under Viking King Sihtric III) 3. Norman Period. 1179-1310 (First coins under John as Lord)
- - 1179-1210 Irish coins minted by John to the Sterling standard.
4. 1310-1450 ‘Borrowed coins’. Norman power in decline. Almost no coins were minted in Ireland during this period. Money in circulation consisted of worn Irish, English and Scottish coins as well as imitation coins from Europe. 5. 1460-1800 Proper mintage of coins recommence.
- - Reduced weight ‘Irish coins’
- - Growth of English influence over Ireland 6. 1801-1928 No separate Irish coinage. Standard British coins circulated.
Summary based on National Museum of Ireland ‘Airgead’ Exhibit of Irish money, and on http://www.irishcoinage.com
By “English standards” I meant the silver content. The design would not need to be the same.
1179-1210 Irish coins minted by John to the Sterling standard. They matched the weights of their corresponding English coins.
Also Henry III, the very considerable coinage of Edward I estimated at the equivalent of 12,000,000 pennies in the link (very good reading over morning coffee…thank you!), as well as Henry VI.
We have the English pound as the currency for the American colonies under British rule in the 17th - 18th centuries (often with completely different designs than their British counterparts)… Is this a similar case?
We have the English pound as the currency for the American colonies under British rule in the 17th - 18th centuries (often with completely different designs than their British counterparts)… Is this a similar case?
No. The Pound Sterling became the official currency of Ireland in 1826 when the Irish Pound was abolished. Prior to that the Irish Pound was a separate currency, sometimes trading at par with Sterling, more often below parity because of underweight Irish coinage.
English coins became the only official coinage in Ireland only after the Act of Union in 1801. Prior to this, Ireland was an independent kingdom with the English king or queen as its monarch, and its coinage, what there was of it, was minted for use in Ireland only and not legal tender in England.
Banknotes had begun to replace coinage in circulation in the late 1700s in Ireland.
We have the English pound as the currency for the American colonies under British rule in the 17th - 18th centuries (often with completely different designs than their British counterparts)… Is this a similar case?
No. The Pound Sterling became the official currency of Ireland in 1826 when the Irish Pound was abolished. Prior to that the Irish Pound was a separate currency, sometimes trading at par with Sterling, more often below parity because of underweight Irish coinage.
English coins became the only official coinage in Ireland only after the Act of Union in 1801. Prior to this, Ireland was an independent kingdom with the English king or queen as its monarch, and its coinage, what there was of it, was minted for use in Ireland only and not legal tender in England.
I am not saying that English coins were the official coinage of Ireland, but asking the question whether the underlying currency unit of account during these earlier times (circa 1200-1460) was the English pound. According to the link, Irish and English coins were equivalent in value, and the Irish coins went to England and circulated there.
I don't know the answer, but it seems the two likely options are the English pound, or an earlier Irish pound that was valued differently from the Irish pound post-1460 (and which was intentionally pegged to the English pound)?
I agree with you that pre-1460 the underlying unit of currency would generally have been the English Pound. Irish coins were often underweight which would have put a strain on parity in face value terms.
I see no reason to split at 1460 due to a devaluation. These happen all the time and should only lead to a split if prices, wages, etc. were increased by 20% to take the debasement into account.
Former Numista referee for banknotes from Ireland, Northern Ireland, Scotland, Wales and Saint Helena.
Do we know how accounts were kept in that period? I know the number of pence in a shilling varied across pre-conquest England but the pound was always 240d.
Former Numista referee for banknotes from Ireland, Northern Ireland, Scotland, Wales and Saint Helena.
And, if anyone is bored and looking for an activity, Noonan's have given permission for the use of their images on Numista.
We will certainly get round to that!
This is one of the better collections of earlier Irish coins. The catalogue of this collection is a good reference on how to sort out the structural divisions of the Irish coinage. Aside from the collection itself, Noonans are one of the best qualified auctioneers to handle Irish coinage in terms of their experience and team knowledge.
Also, Professor Patrick Honohan's article cited in the first post should be taken into account.
With that and www.irishcoinage.com I think that here is enough to get the framework of Irish coinage sorted out.
Somehow, I have my doubts that they were spending ‘Danish East Anglias’.
‘Danish East Anglia’ is a nonsense currency unit. Why not call it the ‘Danish East Anglia Penny’ as we refer to the coinage in terms of pennies?
Same argument for Irish Hiberno-Norse coinage. Currency should be ‘Hiberno-Norse Penny’, or ‘Hiberno-Scandannavian Penny’ ca995-ca1150, because we call them pennies.
A proposal … whatever we call them, I think the dates / breakpoints are sound if we trust Spink.
- Hiberno-Norse Penny (997-1205)
- English Pound (or First Irish Pound?)(1205-1460)
About 1205 King John had minted in Dublin silver pennies bearing his bust set in a triangle. He ordered the weight and fineness of these coins to be of the English sterling standard (0.925) at about 22 ½ grains weight. Ref: Spink 2d ed. (2002), p.120
A great quantity of Irish silver had been drained out of the country by the export of “sterlings” struck on the English standard by King John, Henry III and Edward I …. An ordinance of 1425 authorised a coinage at Dublin of the same weight and fineness as the English coinage and a moneyer was appointed the following year. Ref: Spink 2d ed. (2002), p. 127.
- Irish Pound (or Second Irish Pound?) (from 1460 or 1461 to 1826)
Eventually in 1460 Henry's Anglo-Irish Parliament meeting in Drogheda decided on a new coinage …
The accession of Edward IV saw the issue of the coinage ordered in 1460.. It was of distinctive type with a large crown on the obverse instead of a royal portrait, and to discourage the export of silver coin it was made to a specific Irish weight standard which was three-quarters that of the English standard. Ref: Spink, p.128
I would argue for ‘Irish Pounds’ for periods 2. and 3.
1. Hiberno-Norse ca997-1205. 2. First Irish Pound 1205-1460. 3. Second Irish Pound 1460-1820 [If you prefer 1461, I won't object. Generally, the first crown coinage is listed as ca1460, while the reign of Edward IV commenced in 1461].
Note: There is a specific point, June 1701, when the Irish Pound value was fixed by Proclamation at a rate of 13 pence Irish to 1 British shilling (Barrow (1975), p.25). this fixed rate continued until 1826. Prior to 1701, the Irish Pound had a variable rate against Sterling.
I would not see this as a reason to create a Third Irish Pound from 1701.
It is a continuation of the Second Irish Pound, in my opinion.
