Revise the 2009 5-Piso Reverse Die III Variant

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Questo messaggio ha lo scopo di: richiedere la modifica di una moneta presente nel catalogo

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I consider the year 2009 is a key date for the 5-Piso Philippine coin — this is supposedly the first and only year when all four reverse die types are present (we shall refer to these die type as R1 to R4, for brevity). As the existing numista classification stands, the points of distinction are as follows:

 

  • R1 - narrow date; long sun rays
  • R2 - wide, fine date; long sun rays
  • R3 - wide, bold date; long sun rays
  • R4 - narrow date; short sun rays

 

For easy reference, the 5-Piso page is here: N#1680

 

Of course, we believe that just because almost all collectors don’t have the variant doesn’t mean that the variant doesn’t exist. However, I’ve searched high and low for the 2009 R3, even making a public offer to buy it (a couple of times) from anyone who has it, but no luck. Other collectors (including the contributor to the existing photo guide in numista) share the sentiment that there is no 2009 R3 (as it is currently being characterized — wide, bold date; long sun rays). In other words, unless anyone can show a true R3 based on the current points of identification, we should proceed to assume that the current 2009 R3 does not exist. This switch is also supported by the fact that the existing R3 has a thicker inner circle; the cogwheels also appear to be deeper. All hallmarks of R4. 

 

If the current R3 2009 is non-existent, there is a need to revamp the die type numbers. The reason is simple: the current R4 came earlier. If so, three changes are necessary. One, the current R4 should be re-labelled as R3 (since the R4, as it is currently characterized, first came out earlier, in 2009). Two, there are only THREE main variants in 2009, R1 to R3. Three, the current R3, having been issued after 2009, should be re-labelled as R4.  

 

Should these changes be carried, I also suggest a revamped characterization, intended to achieve a clearer and more uniform identification of variants and sub-variants. A bit of explanation of the terms used below.

 

Wide vs. normal width. As to the spacing between the digits of the date (“1993”) on the reverse, we’ll use “wide date,” in contrast to “normal-width date.” Let’s avoid using the term “narrow” as the opposite of “wide.” This is because “narrow” is also used when referring to the individual digit/letter (for fonts, think “arial” vs. “arial narrow”). So, to avoid confusion, we use “wide date” vis-a-vis “normal-width date.” 

 

Size of letters/digits. The characterization used in numista includes “bold” or “thick” script, but this can be confusing because there are bold/thin sub-variants. For instance, there is R2-bold (the discussion of which we’ll reserve for a later date). The better characterization, in my view, is the distance between the date/letter and the inner circle (because, I gathered, the idea is to make the identification on sight, not using any magnifying lens or measuring tools). 

 

With those considerations, we go to the MAIN POINTS OF IDENTIFICATION:

 

R1 - long sun rays; normal-width date

 

R2 - long sun rays; wide date, specially between “1” and “9;” medium digits, bigger space from inner circle

 

R3 - short sun rays; wide date, specially between “1” and “9” 

 

R4 - long sun rays; wide date, specially between “1” and “9;” big digits, almost no space from inner circle

 

OTHER CHARACTERISTICS. I find it funny that the characterization is geared towards numismatic veterans, and not newbies (who should be the main beneficiaries, to help them in their numismatic journey). The guidelines are silent as to the significance of other factors, like the thickness of the inner circle or the depth of the cogwheels. Veterans know this, but newbies hardly have any guide because these are not mentioned in numista. There is also a need for a consensus whether these characteristics are considered confirmatory (should be present for the identification to be valid) or merely secondary (in case of conflict, the main points of identification should hold). 

I wish to include thin or normal script and bold or thick script for the current die 3. It will become sub variants. And hopefully, die 4 with short sun rays will become die 3 since there's no evidences that die 3 2009 with long sun rays exists, wide bold dates long sun rays r3 or the current r3 should be revised to r 4 since the short sun rays were made first before the bold dates with long rays simply because.Year 2009 short sun rays  was came or made earlier than year 2011 on wards.

I don't see any benefit for renaming the current R4 to R3, and see a big drawback in confusing anyone who recorded the variety number somewhere off Numista.

bjherbison

I don't see any benefit for renaming the current R4 to R3, and see a big drawback in confusing anyone who recorded the variety number somewhere off Numista.

+1 For governments with poor quality control for their coinage, we should just list the years and let users add varieties in their personal comments.

Master Coin Referee
Coin referee for CRI, GTM, HND, NIC, PAN, and SLV.

Revisor principal de monedas
Revisor de Numista para monedas de CRI, GTM, HND, NIC, PAN y SLV.

Slava Ukraini and Free Palestine!

bjherbison

I don't see any benefit for renaming the current R4 to R3, and see a big drawback in confusing anyone who recorded the variety number somewhere off Numista.

Hi @bjherbison. Valid points, thanks for bringing them up. On the ADVANTAGES of renaming now:

 

1. The earlier it is done, the earlier collectors can adapt to the new label. Prolonging the change will only moot the effort of making the labels reflect reality. By analogy, if someone calls me by the wrong name and I don’t say anything for a while, it’s like saying I can no longer insist on my real name because it will lead to confusion. 

 

2. It’s consistent with the basic principle of numbering — earlier variant gets the earlier number. Not acting on it is like, “Ok, my bad, live with the error.”

 

3. 2009 is a bottleneck. We really can’t proceed to flesh out the sub-variants because, well, there’s an issue with the numbering.  

 

The DRAWBACK that you mentioned is not really that big, if I may say so. In fact, not acting on this soonest will lead to more confusion. As things stand now, collectors are very much aware of the non-existent R3 variant, and wonder why on earth numista is not doing anything about it. 

 

Of course, I do understand that this is subject to the approval of numista. If numista approves the change, thank you. If numista does not approve the change, then we’ll just have to put a note in our collection that: (a) there’s really no R3 in 2009; and (b) the R4 is, in reality, R3. 

Some_Nerd+1 For governments with poor quality control for their coinage, we should just list the years and let users add varieties in their personal comments.

Hi. You guys know more about the overall policies, so I would definitely defer to your opinion on this matter. But if I may ask, isn't the referee given authority to decide on variety submissions? Perhaps it has nothing to do with the government's poor quality control, but more of misunderstanding in identifying the variety/variant (R3 looks very much like R4). 

MaxZeus

I wish to include thin or normal script and bold or thick script for the current die 3. It will become sub variants. And hopefully, die 4 with short sun rays will become die 3 since there's no evidences that die 3 2009 with long sun rays exists, wide bold dates long sun rays r3 or the current r3 should be revised to r 4 since the short sun rays were made first before the bold dates with long rays simply because.Year 2009 short sun rays  was came or made earlier than year 2011 on wards.

Hi MaxZeus. We'll just have to wait for the decision whether or not to re-label R3/R4. Yes, I agree with you that there are a number of sub-variants. 

Please take into account, that for type collectors the varieties are normally completely ignored, both in their collections and in their doubles, so the more variants you define, the more our members will register their coins wrongly. Specially, when the determination of a variant is very difficult, since the differences are very small. 

 

I suggest to stick ONLY to main varieties, the sub-varieties should only be documented in the comments section, never in the year lines, please. BTW, I collect variants….., nevertheless too many year lines will kill the authenticity of the coins in numista!

 

This is of course only my personal opinion, everyone is allowed to have a different view on this.

Globetrotter
Coin varieties in French:
https://monnaiesetvarietes.numista.com

Sjoelund

Please take into account, that for type collectors the varieties are normally completely ignored, both in their collections and in their doubles, so the more variants you define, the more our members will register their coins wrongly. Specially, when the determination of a variant is very difficult, since the differences are very small. 

 

I suggest to stick ONLY to main varieties, the sub-varieties should only be documented in the comments section, never in the year lines, please. BTW, I collect variants….., nevertheless too many year lines will kill the authenticity of the coins in numista!

Hi @Sjoelund. I see your point and I agree. However, R1 to R4 are the main varieties for the 1995-2017 series. Just trying my luck in switching R3 and R4  Explained above. Thanks. 

bjherbison

I don't see any benefit for renaming the current R4 to R3, and see a big drawback in confusing anyone who recorded the variety number somewhere off Numista.

 

Hello, I think the change cannot affect majority of collectors since they're just collecting and completing their frames based on the year of the coin. Not variants.

Dan More

 

Hi @Sjoelund. I see your point and I agree. However, R1 to R4 are the main varieties for the 1995-2017 series. Just trying my luck in switching R3 and R4  Explained above. Thanks. 

I don't think that's a good idea, if the r3 is not used, it's not a problem!

Globetrotter
Coin varieties in French:
https://monnaiesetvarietes.numista.com

Sjoelund I don't think that's a good idea, if the r3 is not used, it's not a problem!

Copy. My only point is that in terms of chronological  order, R3 (as it is currently characterized) actually came AFTER R4. If there's no problem in that, then ok. 

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