Buffalo Nickel ND (no date)

Can we add "ND" (no date) as a date option for this series? The series is famous for having worn, unreadable  dates, and I've seen several members here list their no-date coins in their swap lists or collections, when really the date is worn off. The members include a note that the coin has no date, but that might not be the best solution.

N#1109

Can't you just add the coin and set the coin type as Undetermined. I do that when I can't identified the date.

That is exactly what this option is for.

I think “undetermined” makes sense for other types where the date is worn off…

But Buffalo nickels are well-known for worn dates and I think this is a special case given the frequency.

You can even buy dateless buffalos by the bag at shows. They are very very very common.

We don't say the date is “undetermined”, we say “no date” or “dateless” and it's so common I think the ND designation is appropriate here.

ND = No date for coins that were issues without date, in your case it’s a ? Date that you want no ND.

Until the "Undefined" option was implemented in 2021 these “ND” coins could be listed under the year line “?”.  After implementation everybody's no date coins were automatically moved to “Undetermined.”  Here's a screenshot of the coin page from 28-2-2021:

Thanks for all the input.

OK, so ND should be reserved for coins minted without a date as a design choice. Agreed, makes sense.

As for the “?” option that was replaecd with “undetermined” as a general notation, well, I think that's accurate for many issues where the coin is worn or damaged and the date is unreadable, and it's technically accurate for worn buffalos too, but that's not the vernacular!

Dateless buffalos are a special case that deserve special notation: DATELESS.

I've been collecting coins for about a thousands years now and as you might all agree, dateless buffalos are very common.

In fact, they're so common that everybody who collects US coins has som dateless buffalos and we all call them dateless.

So, for buffalos, where dateless coins are common, normal, frequent, bought, sold, and traded by the bag, and everyone in the hobby calls them “dateless”, I think “dateless” is a prefectly fine option to place under the date column on Numista. I'd also include  a comment noting the frequency of dateless buffalos, the cause, and value. It's a very minor change, wouldn't take more than a swift update, and would make immediate sense to all new and existing members.

Thoughts?

These coins are/were not dateless, it just wore a way and I don't see any reason for special treatment of this particular coin just because of a shitty design. There are many coins especially hand punched where dates can be off-flan or similar badly designed coins with raised dates or other important signifiers being highpoints. If you can't properly identify or “determine” a coin … you put it under undetermined. 

“**** design?”

That's excessive and unnecessarily vulgar. Please calm down good sir!

The term “undetermined” is vague, but serves the purpose for many coins with worn or damaged dates. I take no issue with that in general.

However, common parlance in the industry and hobby says that the buffalo coins discussed herein are “dateless”. The nomemclature dates back many decades, it is widely accepted by thousands of collectors and dealers. Numista can and should adopt the term for this series, along with an explanatory comment. There is no cost or other barrier to adopting industry-accepted terminology. I see no reason to reject the change.

Ok I rephrase it to crappy design (and I don't mean the motive if think that's what I mean).

What you understand as “common parlance in the industry and hobby” is just from a US stand point which is irrelevant when looking at the whole catalog.

So the coin has “crappy design” and the US stand point is “irrelevant”? Wow, you have very strong and angry opinions, don't you?

To which “whole catalog” do you refer? The Numista catalog? I ask because we all like Numista - that's why we're here - but Numista is not the standard bearer for the hobby. Nor is Numista's catalog immutable. Instead, Numista can and does consider changes suggested by its members. That's why I'm here!

Meanwhile, I've yet to see any peer-reviewed source, or any source whatsoever, other than Numista, that uses the phrase “undetermined” to describe dateless buffalo nickels. If I'm wrong, it should be very easy to prove. Let me know who else in the hobby prefers the phrase “undetermined” to “dateless”? Please cite your sources.

PS: “Undetermined” as an appellation assumes only that a date has yet to be determined, not that the date can not be determined. In cases like buffalo nickels, where the date wears beyond recognition, the phrase should be “undeterminable" or perhaps “illegible,” and not “undetermined.” In any case, I'll stick with “dateless,” and I still think it's a good ida for Numista's catalog.

Dateless means it was minted without a date, this is not true of your coins. Your date in undeterminable, meaning that it has not been possible to determine a date for it. The English word used here is correct in its usage. Therefore, nothing needs to change.

At this point you yearn to be offended 🙃 … what ever floats your goat.

Idolenz - I assume your last comment is directed at me? If so, please know that I do not, in fact, yearn to be offended. Perhaps your grasp of the English language is less strong than you believe? You may not be familiar with idiosyncrasies of our language and the lack of intonation in written English.

I will remind you that in each of my prior messages, I have been purely objective. You, however, made rash, vulgar, and purely subjective comments, none of which were based in fact. You simply do not care for the “shitty” design or the “irrelevant” opinion of the US coin industry. Those are your words. I am not offended, though I am surprised by your verbiage.

I remain resolute in my opinion. The appropriate designation for the coins in question is “dateless”.

PS: I also remain resolute in my assertion that “undetermined” is non-specific and does not, in fact, convey the fact that the coins' dates are illegible and thus undeterminable.

Lets all calm done here!

Lets just agree that maybe the Undetermined section could be a bit unclear to some people and there may be a better word for it, but it would be weird to add a section for ND  buffalo nickels because that would make it so that every coin page would need one as there is always a dateless coin, no matter the type. If you think the wording is not clear than maybe someone could take to Xavier to change it if it is really that important for some.

Peterjhalford - 

Thanks for your message. However, I argue that “dateless” does not, in fact, mean that the coin was minted without a date. In this forum, the ND designation is used to describe such coins.

The teem “dateless” is derived from the root word “date” and the suffix “-less” which, according to Merriam Webster, means:

"destitute of : not having"

Thus, dateless means “having no date,” which describes dateless buffalo nickels quite well.

FeeFoo -

Thanks for your calming demeanor and also your common sense.

Again, I argue that buffalo nickels are a special case deserving of a notation of “dateless” due only to the very very common occurrence of dateless examples among buffalo nickels.

I am surprised only by the negative reaction I received to my suggestion, which I considered simple and obvious. We shall see!

Hello,

“Undetermined” is the term we use across the whole catalog for coins to register coins when the year is not readable. It may also be used when the owner cannot recognize the variety or just doesn't want to register the exact year.

I understand that US collectors rather use the word “dateless” for Buffalo nickels when the year is worn off. Numista being a global website addressing world numismatics, I'd prefer keeping a single word for this concept all across the catalog. Buffalo nickels are not different from other coins in the world which are too worn for the year to be legible.

I'd prefer keeping the term of undetermined date rather than dateless. Without the context of buffalo nickels, dateless sounds like no date (ND) to me, which usually refers to coin types which don't include the year in their design.

The word undeterminable may work as well. However it excludes cases where the owner just doesn't want to determine (either because they don't care or it would be too complex for them to determine), and I don't think we should add complexity in Numista to distinguish these cases. Also, there may be half-worn buffalo nickels which may be considered as dateless, but a thorough examination could reveal the year: in the case, is the date really undeterminable? I'd rather stick to the more generic word undetermined. 

My recommendation would be to edit the page of N#1109 and explain the concept of dateless buffalo nickels in the comment section, not in the table of years and varieties. 

TCon

The teem “dateless” is derived from the root word “date” and the suffix “-less” which, according to Merriam Webster, means:

 

"destitute of : not having"

 

Thus, dateless means “having no date,” which describes dateless buffalo nickels quite well.

You can't see any contradictions between “Dateless” and “ND”, then? I mean, since dateless means “no date” … just like ND … To me it seems like you are taking the solution of a problem and makes it to a new problem. “Undetermined” are to be used when the date is not possible to determine.

According to Merrian Webster it means: Not definitely or authoritatively decided, settled, or identified : not determined.