Notgeld on Numista needs to improve.

I got a few issues with how we handle Notgeld and similar coins. 

(something to say in advance, I will only show one coin/link as per example. This “problem” involves hundreds of coins, and I could find at least 5 coins for almost every example. So these aren't just single cases. thanks.) 

Tram Tokens:

There are some in “coins” like this one:

N#18670 

And some are in “exonumia” like this one:

N#36599

Just confuses me, I personally would like them in "coins", cause then all Notgeld would be together, but I can understand why people see them as Tokens. 

Moving on to private issuers. 

If you follow the rules of Numista, the private Notgeld that was only used in and by certain companies should be in “exonumia”. 

But most of them, are in “coins”:

N#282503

Some other are in “exonumia” again:

N#295354

Why are some private issuers under “German Notgeld > Bavaria - Private issuers” even if the city already has an Issuer:

N#314033

and some private issuers are listed under the City they are made in?:

N#297837

“Kriegsgefangenenlager-coins” (Prisoners currencies) are in exonumia. 

Even though they aren't really different then the private issuers which are mostly in (as previously said) in “coins” 

N#152352

For non Germans its hard to read, and since they look like other Notgeld (and got used like that) many (including me) couldn't find them. 

Issuer inconsistencies:

Why is this coin from Donaueschingen not listed in Donaueschingen? 

N#338672

Cause it does have its own issuer in the catalog:

https://en.numista.com/catalogue/index.php?e=donaueschingen_city_notgeld&r=&ct=coin&im1=&im2=&tb=y&tc=y&tn=y&tp=y&tt=y&cat=y&ru=&ca=3&no=&v=&i=&b=&d=&ie=&u=&a=&dg=&m=&f=&t=&w=&mt=&g=&se=&c=&wi=&sw= 

There are quite a few more of these cases. 

Some aren't even entered as Notgeld in any way:

N#20415 

Not quite Notgeld. But I think it still belongs in this threat 

The Ghetto mark are listed in coins, but are classified as Tokens?

https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces10846.html 

(And its part of Poland, which makes no sense. Cause German Notgeld of cities that are now in Poland or France are still listed in Germany as “German Notgeld” , so why should we put these to Poland?)  

For example “Bromberg” is now “Bydgoszcz” in Poland:

N#40390

(Danzig is a weird case as well. But I can kind of see why it's listed as Poland)

Edit:

Worst of all are “Paper coins”, basically Cardboard or paper coins, the size of quarters. Those are splitt through all the categories. “coins” “banknotes” and “Exonumia” 

Coins:
N#152486 (Another Tram Token in coins btw)
Exonumia:
N#317213
Banknotes:
N#16856 
 

And I get that it's hard to organize Notgeld. For people who can't read German its hard to tell if a coin it a private issuer or City Notgeld. Since they both look the same and are, in most points, identical in their usage and reason why they exist. 

I think Notgeld needs a general overhaul and in my opinion needs to be all in one place. 

Cause all Notgeld is technically the same:

Made between 1917-1924 serving as a kind of replacement money because the money of the government didn't work anymore (very simplified)

So there is no real reason to split them. And if, then correctly and especially in a way that everyone understands it. 

At the end I want to say that this is not meant in any bad way. I'm happy that we have such a great team on Numista and that they manage to keep the website running, especially for free. 

Have a nice day and stay safe! 

~Justin 

And i know this is probably the wrong section to post, but u didn't knew where else to post it. Im sorry. 

It is good forum part. :) We recently discussed and we will be discussing more general changes to catalogue structure, that would cover all problematic issues, and this division of notgeld is one of them.

Jarcek

It is good forum part. :) We recently discussed and we will be discussing more general changes to catalogue structure, that would cover all problematic issues, and this division of notgeld is one of them.

 

 

That's great too hear. Thank you for the quick and kind reply :) 

I totally agree that reorganization is needed. And not only for notgeld. If you take a look at UK tokens ("Conder" tokens, classified as coins) they are also kind of notgeld. 

Furthermore, most of them are what we call NCLT today, as they were “made for Collectors”. Yet, this is not reflected in catalogue. 

Dejan

I totally agree that reorganization is needed. And not only for notgeld. If you take a look at UK tokens ("Conder" tokens, classified as coins) they are also kind of notgeld. 

Furthermore, most of them are what we call NCLT today, as they were “made for Collectors”. Yet, this is not reflected in catalogue. 

Yeah, same with the 1863 US civil war tokens. They got made because the US didn't made enough Cents during that time. 

 I think there should be a new category, like “Replacement Currencies” that kinda stands between Exonumia and coins. Because they are privately made (more like Exonumia) but are used as normal currency, or along side it (like in the case of Civil war tokens) 

Jarcek

It is good forum part. :) We recently discussed and we will be discussing more general changes to catalogue structure, that would cover all problematic issues, and this division of notgeld is one of them.

 

 

Hey, what about the idea of making a new category? Called something like “Replacement Money” cause as someone else in this thread pointed out, there are multible countries that had similar used "coins" like the UK, the US (civil war token), Algeria, Spain, france etc. 

Im pretty sure that there are even more “replacement currencies”. Its also hard to put them either in coins or Exonumia, cause they are kinda both:

Privately issued like most Exonumia, but used as “official” currencies or along side it like coins. 

(it also would kinda fix the “issuer problem” many have. Cause having a lot of Notgeld also adds a lot of issuers, many people dont really view as such) 

Idk, just an idea. You guys will figure something out. 

Cheers 

in my opinion,

german notgeld 1917-23 and similar tokens (other crises) should stay in the coin section. They are used and accepted as currency (for a period).

These items are closer to the coin section than many of the modern commemorative coins, which are currency only by law / issuers phantasy.

JustLikeMC

Hey, what about the idea of making a new category? Called something like “Replacement Money” cause as someone else in this thread pointed out, there are multible countries that had similar used "coins" like the UK, the US (civil war token), Algeria, Spain, france etc. 

Im pretty sure that there are even more “replacement currencies”. Its also hard to put them either in coins or Exonumia, cause they are kinda both:

Privately issued like most Exonumia, but used as “official” currencies or along side it like coins. 

 

(it also would kinda fix the “issuer problem” many have. Cause having a lot of Notgeld also adds a lot of issuers, many people dont really view as such) 

 

Idk, just an idea. You guys will figure something out. 

 

Cheers 

Yes, seem that “notgeld” is more or less similar to “Replacement money”, and I think is better (more understandable for non-expert or non-German speakers) use “Replacement money” or similar (or “Replacement money (notgeld)”)… but “notgeld” is the shortest.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Notgeld

Notgeld (German for "emergency money" or "necessity money") […]

Also I am agreed to create a new category with notgeld (coins, banknotes, notgeld and exonumia) because

• for some people notgeld are coins, for others are exonumia,
• now notgeld items are divided part in coins and part in exonumia,
• and other reason: All notgelds are coins? Or are there notgelds of paper? Because if yes, notgeld can be coins and banknotes, and the new category is more necessary.

davidhs

JustLikeMC

Hey, what about the idea of making a new category? Called something like “Replacement Money” cause as someone else in this thread pointed out, there are multible countries that had similar used "coins" like the UK, the US (civil war token), Algeria, Spain, france etc. 

Im pretty sure that there are even more “replacement currencies”. Its also hard to put them either in coins or Exonumia, cause they are kinda both:

Privately issued like most Exonumia, but used as “official” currencies or along side it like coins. 

 

(it also would kinda fix the “issuer problem” many have. Cause having a lot of Notgeld also adds a lot of issuers, many people dont really view as such) 

 

Idk, just an idea. You guys will figure something out. 

 

Cheers 

Yes, seem that “notgeld” is more or less similar to “Replacement money”, and I think is better (more understandable for non-expert or non-German speakers) use “Replacement money” or similar (or “Replacement money (notgeld)”)… but “notgeld” is the shortest.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Notgeld

Notgeld (German for "emergency money" or "necessity money") […]

 

Also I am agreed to create a new category with notgeld (coins, banknotes, notgeld and exonumia) because

• for some people notgeld are coins, for others are exonumia,
• now notgeld items are divided part in coins and part in exonumia,
• and other reason: All notgelds are coins? Or are there notgelds of paper? Because if yes, notgeld can be coins and banknotes, and the new category is more necessary.

Notgeld also exist in banknotes, most of them probably are. Many cities didn't had coins at all, instead had all in banknotes, from 10 Pfennig upwards. Sometimes even 5, 2 or 1 Pfennig as Notes. 

There are even some “paper coins” which are small round pieces of paper, the size of a quarter and round. But just made out of cardboard or paper. These are even harder to classify cause some of them are even in “Banknotes” (i will probably add that to my original post, cause i kinda forgot about these, even though i got 3 of them) 

JustLikeMC

Notgeld also exist in banknotes, most of them probably are. Many cities didn't had coins at all, instead had all in banknotes, from 10 Pfennig upwards. Sometimes even 5, 2 or 1 Pfennig as Notes. 

Then a new category “Notgeld” is the best (I think).

JustLikeMC

There are even some “paper coins” which are small sound pieces of paper, the size of a quarter and round. But just made out of cardboard or paper. These are even harder to classify cause some of them are even in “Banknotes” 

Yes, I know this: https://en.numista.com/catalogue/espagne_guerre-civile-1.html

I saw all types of exonumia in Numista catalogue.

If all notgelds are moved to only one section, I think the categories in bold (*) are notgelds and can be moved, and categories in bold italic (?) perhaps, I do not know:

• Automatic tokens:
  • Access tokens
  • Car wash tokens
  • Deposit tokens
  • Dispenser tokens
  • Game tokens
  • Locker tokens
  • Telecommunication tokens
  • Parking tokens
  • Phonograph tokens
  • Ride tokens
  • Transit tokens (?)
• Confinement tokens:
  • Internment or prison tokens (*)
  • Leper colony tokens (*)
  • Military tokens (*)
  • School tokens (*)
  • Work encampment tokens (*)
• Event tokens:
  • Shooting festival tokens
  • Festival tokens
• Ration tokens:
  • Food ration tokens (*)
  • Fuel tokens (*)
  • Utilities tokens (?)
• Trade tokens:
  • Business tokens
  • Co-operative tokens
  • Local administration tokens (*)
  • Taxation tokens
  • Wage tokens (?)
• Miscellaneous tokens:
  • Religious tokens
  • Dance tokens
  • Brothel tokens
  • Casino chip or tokens
• Award medals: …
• Commemorative medals: …
• Promotional items:
  • Advertising tokens
  • Campaign tokens
  • Membership tokens
• Souvenir medals: …
• Bullion: …
• Coin patterns:
  • Mint tokens
  • Coin patterns
• Contemporary counterfeits:
  • Contemporary counterfeits
• Utility items: …
• Fantasy items:
  • Fantasy currency
  • ECU & Pre 1999 Euros
  • Official collector currency (?)
  • Fantasy items of fictional places
  • Play money
• Paper exonumia:
  • ATM test notes
  • Contemporary counterfeits
  • Fantasy banknotes
  • Banknote patterns
  • Reproductions
  • Souvenir notes
• Paper vouchers:
  • Confinement vouchers (*)
  • Foreign exchange certificates (?)
  • Postal orders (?)
  • Promissory notes (?)
  • Promotional coupons
  • Ration coupons (*)
  • Trade vouchers
• Primitive money:
  • Primitive money
• Unclassified exonumia: …

davidhs

I saw all types of exonumia in Numista catalogue.

 

If all notgelds are moved to only one section, I think the categories in bold (*) are notgelds and can be moved, and categories in bold italic (?) perhaps, I do not know:

 

• Automatic tokens:
  • Access tokens
  • Car wash tokens
  • Deposit tokens
  • Dispenser tokens
  • Game tokens
  • Locker tokens
  • Telecommunication tokens
  • Parking tokens
  • Phonograph tokens
  • Ride tokens
  • Transit tokens
• Confinement tokens:
  • Internment or prison tokens (*)
  • Leper colony tokens (*)
  • Military tokens (*)
  • School tokens (*)
  • Work encampment tokens (*)
• Event tokens:
  • Shooting festival tokens
  • Festival tokens
• Ration tokens:
  • Food ration tokens (*)
  • Fuel tokens (*)
  • Utilities tokens (?)
• Trade tokens:
  • Business tokens
  • Co-operative tokens
  • Local administration tokens (*)
  • Taxation tokens
  • Wage tokens (?)
• Miscellaneous tokens:
  • Religious tokens
  • Dance tokens
  • Brothel tokens
  • Casino chip or tokens
• Award medals: …
• Commemorative medals: …
• Promotional items:
  • Advertising tokens
  • Campaign tokens
  • Membership tokens
• Souvenir medals: …
• Bullion: …
• Coin patterns:
  • Mint tokens
  • Coin patterns
• Contemporary counterfeits:
  • Contemporary counterfeits
• Utility items: …
• Fantasy items:
  • Fantasy currency
  • ECU & Pre 1999 Euros
  • Official collector currency (?)
  • Fantasy items of fictional places
  • Play money
• Paper exonumia:
  • ATM test notes
  • Contemporary counterfeits
  • Fantasy banknotes
  • Banknote patterns
  • Reproductions
  • Souvenir notes
• Paper vouchers:
  • Confinement vouchers (*)
  • Foreign exchange certificates (?)
  • Postal orders (?)
  • Promissory notes (?)
  • Promotional coupons
  • Ration coupons (*)
  • Trade vouchers
• Primitive money:
  • Primitive money
• Unclassified exonumia: …

Transit Tokens also have a lot of Notgeld. 

JustLikeMC

Transit Tokens also have a lot of Notgeld.

Ok, I mark in my previous message with (?)

Comments:

• In one category of exonumia can be all notgeld or not all.
• I have not idea about notgelds, only I try order the subject.

Maybe a category called “Local Currency” could cover all (or most) of the items in question. 

Coins/Notes issued by entities other than a country itself, but still used as currency for a limited time and limited to places smaller than their mother-country (county, city).

Different countries' notgeld, local administration event currency (like Canadian festival Dollars or French/Belgian tourist Euros valid over a period of a couple of weeks for purchase in local businesses), transit tokens and the like.

Exonumia should be kept for medals and fantasy metal discs with no real purchasing power, and - if you ask me - I'd move there all the NCLTs as well (after filtering out coins minted in hundreds of thousands/millions that are unjustly catalogized as such!).

Dejan

Maybe a category called “Local Currency” could cover all (or most) of the items in question. 

This would be a good idea. 

There are some items issued in Ireland which are currently in Exonumia which would actually fall into the category of notgeld or local currency.

Dejan

Maybe a category called “Local Currency” could cover all (or most) of the items in question. 

Coins/Notes issued by entities other than a country itself, but still used as currency for a limited time and limited to places smaller than their mother-country (county, city).

Different countries' notgeld, local administration event currency (like Canadian festival Dollars or French/Belgian tourist Euros valid over a period of a couple of weeks for purchase in local businesses), transit tokens and the like.

Exonumia should be kept for medals and fantasy metal discs with no real purchasing power, and - if you ask me - I'd move there all the NCLTs as well (after filtering out coins minted in hundreds of thousands/millions that are unjustly catalogized as such!).

I see a difference between general local currency and transit tokens. Government issued coins and banknotes are for any use (with some limitations like “businesses don't need to accept thousands of pennies”). Local emergency money is the same – usable for any transaction in the locale. But transit tokens aren't used as general money, they can only officially used for a specific purpose (they might be accepted in other places, but that would be a courtesy, like accepting foreign money). I think “coins” should be limited to item used for general transactions.

(Tokens good at one business could be treated as money for a specific locale, but I don't think we want the coin issuer list to include every business that issued a token with a value.)

Also consider searching. I am interested in Aachen notgeld and German coins. And Aachen is a part of Germany. But when I search for coins from Germany I don't want to always have the coins from Aachen show up in my search results.

bjherbison

 

 

Also consider searching. I am interested in Aachen notgeld and German coins. And Aachen is a part of Germany. But when I search for coins from Germany I don't want to always have the coins from Aachen show up in my search results.

This should not be a problem, since in your example Aachen would be under “Local Currency” and Germany under German “Coins”. 

Hello Justin,

Some information regarding your first post:

Expl Krefeld:
The 15 Pfennig was recognized by the city as officially 'notgeld' but not the 20 Pf. That's why you have a FUNCK ref. for the 15 Pf. 
I only know 2-3 coins which are 'transport token' but reconized as 'notgeld'.

Expl: Privat notgeld / POW camp notgeld
N#282503 is a privat notgeld accepted generally inside the town. 
N#295354 is POW camp notgeld only accepted insite the camp (or factory).
to make the difference we add the MENZEL category "BBB" = priv.notgeld and "CCC" = POW notgeld in the comment field.
MENZEL is now online available for free.

Expl: Donaueschingen
because N#338672 has not the same issuer as the other coins from Donaueschingen 
for N#338672 it's F. STANDESH FUERSTENBER
for the other it's "STADT"
You can see the difference also in the FUNCK ref. 102 & 101

Expl: 
N#20415 
=> not considerated as 'notgeld' (see MENZEL)

Expl:
“Bromberg” is now “Bydgoszcz” in Poland.
because in 1919 Bromberg was German. 
Have a look to the city of Weimar. They changed 3 time the territory status. 

I do not get a clear criteria for the information if a coin was notgeld or exonumia.

Transit tokens were used as money? 

Were is the sources of the information? There are strassenbahn in exonumia and in the coin catalog.

Funck and Menzel should be all considered notgelder?

Notgeld definition : for expl. refer to 

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Notgeld

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Notgeld

Transit tokens were used as money? 

=> Yes, could be the case

Were is the sources of the information? There are strassenbahn in exonumia and in the coin catalog.

=> The main catalogues for German Notgeld is FUNCK an MENZEL. 3 'Strassenbahn' coins are in coin section as “officially” recognized by the town as Notgeld.

Funck and Menzel should be all considered notgelder?

Funck : yes - only “officially” Notgeld 

Menzel: Notgeld and Token. A letter-codification make the difference between Notgeld and token.

https://wertmarkenforum.de/wertmarkenkatalog-von-peter-menzel/

=>

https://wertmarkenforum.de/Downloads/P-MENZEL-Notm%C3%BCnzen-Geldersatzmarken-Ausgabe%202022-TEIL%201%20Vorworte%20und%20Einleitung.pdf

Have a look to page 6 : Notgeld = AAA - EEE

Thank you katermurr for the clarification.

Dejan

bjherbison

 

 

Also consider searching. I am interested in Aachen notgeld and German coins. And Aachen is a part of Germany. But when I search for coins from Germany I don't want to always have the coins from Aachen show up in my search results.

This should not be a problem, since in your example Aachen would be under “Local Currency” and Germany under German “Coins”. 

+1 for “Local Currency”.

Hibernia

Dejan

Maybe a category called “Local Currency” could cover all (or most) of the items in question. 

This would be a good idea. 

There are some items issued in Ireland which are currently in Exonumia which would actually fall into the category of notgeld or local currency.

Which ones are they?

I know the Limerick Soviet notes of 1919 should be under ‘Banknotes’ - & under ‘Community Currency’.

Aidan.

BCNumismatics

 

Which ones are they?

Limerick Soviet and Roma tokens.

Hibernia

BCNumismatics

 

Which ones are they?

Limerick Soviet and Roma tokens.

Those definitely should be under ‘Community Currencies’ anyway.

Aidan.

I don't know what the appropriate classification would be for pieces classified as Notgeld, but it is obvious that these pieces have a lot of importance in our catalog. 

To give an example, in the Numista banknote catalogue, of the 37,136 banknote types currently in Numista, 18,614 (more than a half) can be considered as Notgeld (or emergency coinage).

ALGERIA 36

AUSTRIA 4154

BELGIUM 5

DENMARK 3

FRANCE 664

GERMANY 9009

HUNGARY 145

ITALY 101

LATVIA 15

PHILIPPINES 599

POLAND 41

PORTUGAL 115

ROMANIA 6

RUSSIA (Civil War) 799

SENEGAL 1

SPAIN 2831

USA (Conf. States) 69

YUGOSLAVIA 21

TOTAL 18,614

I am not very in favor of calling them local coinage, since this term refers to a geographical term, not the type of currency. I think Emergency Coinage would be appropriate if we want to eliminate the Notgeld concept.

Making a different catalog for the Notgelds does not seem appropriate to me either, since, after all, they are coins, banknotes or exonumia pieces. Perhaps a special section could be made, both in coins and banknotes, for the pieces considered Notgeld, as has been done with the pieces marked in the picture below.

We simply need to assign these pieces to the places that they were issued in and stop using an irrelevant term to describe them. Even among the German pieces assigned to “Notgeld” there are many for which this term is simply inappropriate.

I think ‘Emergency Currency’ would be an appropriate overall term for these – a term I have sometimes seen used to describe Polish and Finnish ‘notgeld’. They largely appear to have been issued in place of coin or low denomination notes to address currency shortages, mostly around the era of WW1 and and its aftermath. 

I have a Polish note here in front of me, just arrived. It somewhat unusually, it calls itself ‘Kreigsnotgeld’, issued in Elbling (now Elbląg – a large town in Mazuria, north Poland), 1918. I would classify this as Emergency Currency. This town ended up in Germany, close to the Polish border after the creation of Poland.

Another, I have here is issued in Śmiecin, a borough in Ciecanow, a town around 40min north of Warsaw, dated 1920, and was in Poland after the creation of the state.

Most interestingly, is this one [ N#344841 ] which calls itself ‘Przekaz’ in Polish, Notgeld. Przekaz translates to English as ‘Money Order’.

What many of the Polish notgeld issues share in common is a promise of the termination of the issue after a period of time or announcement by the issuers, presumably a restoration of normal currency issues.

Hibernia

I think ‘Emergency Currency’ would be an appropriate overall term for these – a term I have sometimes seen used to describe Polish and Finnish ‘notgeld’. They largely appear to have been issued in place of coin or low denomination notes to address currency shortages, mostly around the era of WW1 and and its aftermath. 

Something like this definitely needed, as is used on the French and Spanish version of Numista. However, I would suggest is that this term is used not as a title for issuers but as a type for both coins and notes. I'd also suggest “Emergency Issue” rather than “Currency” as the currency rarely (if ever) was different from what preceded these issues.

ceh2019

I'd also suggest “Emergency Issue” rather than “Currency” as the currency rarely (if ever) was different from what preceded these issues.

That's a very good point.

I added renaming Notgeld to next admin meeting agenda.

Jarcek

I added renaming Notgeld to next admin meeting agenda.

Sounds good :) 

Incidentally, I will be adding some Finnish emergency issues in the future.

We should also look for a common term to describe the type of coin/banknote that is the same to have some consistency. Maybe something like: Emergency issue coin / Emergency issue banknote.

We now have two different terms to describe the same type of coin/note: Standard circulation coin and Local banknote

oynbcn

We should also look for a common term to describe the type of coin/banknote that is the same to have some consistency. Maybe something like: Emergency issue coin / Emergency issue banknote.

 

We now have two different terms to describe the same type of coin/note: Standard circulation coin and Local banknote

 

  

+1; this would be a good improvement.

oynbcn

We should also look for a common term to describe the type of coin/banknote that is the same to have some consistency. Maybe something like: Emergency issue coin / Emergency issue banknote.

A very good thought. 

I think the terms ‘Emergency issue coin’ and ‘Emergency issue banknote’ are very appropriate. Added as options in the Type menu, they would accurately clarify these issues, and distinguish them from ‘local currency’ which is different.

The word ‘Notgeld’ should be used only for Austrian, German, & Liechtenstein's emergency notes.

Of course, ‘Notgeld’ applies to the Austrian & German emergency token coins only.

Aidan.

Notgeld would still be searchable for cases where it is established name.

BCNumismatics

The word ‘Notgeld’ should be used only for Austrian, German, & Liechtenstein's emergency notes.

 

Of course, ‘Notgeld’ applies to the Austrian & German emergency token coins only.

 

Aidan.

We can also make sure that Kriegsgeld appears where appropriate. As part of the review, can the artificial split between the issues of the German states before and after 1918 be looked at? At present, everything after 1918 is either in “Notgeld” or the main German section, even when they are issued by a single bank, e.g., the Badische Bank.