Guidelines update for posthumous rulers (Elizabeth II) [Risolto]

Hello,

Following the recent passing of Elizabeth II, we have many coins bearing the portrait of the queen but issued after her death. Which ruler should we indicate on the coin? I suggest we indicate both Elizabeth II and Charles III. Elizabeth the II because she was the ruler when the project of the coin was conceived and started; that's why the coin bears her portrait. And also Charles III because these are the first coin issued during his reign, even if they don't bear his portrait.

I would also keep the guideline in section 3.2.1 to add “posthumous” to the title of the coin.

Could you please share your views about this case? Then we can update the guidelines and the impacted coins.

Note that this rule would not only apply to Elizabeth II and Charles III, but any similar case where the production of a coin was started during the reign of one ruler and released during the reign of another ruler.

 How about neither? 

If there is a portrait on the obverse then that goes in the description. 

No need for it in the title as well - I always thought. 

You mean like this?

rsirian1

You mean like this?

 

Exactly!

Personally, I think this will create a mess.

In Canada, for 2023 coins, we don't have coins with Charles III effigy (at the moment) but a special Elizabeth II transitional effigy.  Since Charles III is the actual king, I added him as the ruler even if his effigy is not on the coin. I left both names (Elizabeth and Charles) out of the title after reading the guidelines. Elizabeth II is not the ruler anymore so her name shouldn't be in the title in the ruler's place and the effigy of Charles III is not on the coin.

Exemples:

Canada - Ruler: Charles III

For coins produced in 2022 with Elizabeth II normal effigy, after her death, I added her as the ruler and added her name in the title. I supposed the coins were already minted before her death.

The problem I have to look into is with the 6 coins minted in 2022 (before her death) with a 2023 date and with Elizabeth's normal effigy. These coins shouldn't have been released by the RCM, but they did. I will probably add a paragraph in the comment section explaining this situation/aberration.

Regards,

If the coin was conceived after the death of Elizabeth II, I agree she should not be considered as the ruler. Charles III should be mentioned only in the ruler field.

For the last coins you mentioned (coins conceived or even minted during the reign of Elizabeth II and released after her death, I would add both in the ruler field. An explanation in the comment field is indeed helpful.

Québécois

Personally, I think this will create a mess.

 

In Canada, for 2023 coins, we don't have coins with Charles III effigy (at the moment) but a special Elizabeth II transitional effigy.  Since Charles III is the actual king, I added him as the ruler even if his effigy is not on the coin. I left both names (Elizabeth and Charles) out of the title after reading the guidelines. Elizabeth II is not the ruler anymore so her name shouldn't be in the title in the ruler's place and the effigy of Charles III is not on the coin.

 

Exemples:

Canada - Ruler: Charles III

This case is actually already described in the guidelines. The section 3.2.1. indicates that “titles of posthumous issues should mention “Posthumous” following the ruler’s name, separated by a comma”

For example: 5 Cents - Elizabeth II, Posthumous

The ruler field should indeed be set with Charles III.

The question in my original post is only for the ruler field of coins released between 8 September 2022 and end of 2022 or early 2023, which were designed or minted before the death of the queen but released when the reign of Charles III already started.

There are also cases like N#336507 , which is dated 2023, but it was designed, minted, and released before the death of Elizabeth II (the mint's website indicates “Expected to be shipped on Aug 04”), so I believe that both the title and the ruler field should mention Elizabeth II only.

Xavier

If the coin was conceived after the death of Elizabeth II, I agree she should not be considered as the ruler. Charles III should be mentioned only in the ruler field.

 

For the last coins you mentioned (coins conceived or even minted during the reign of Elizabeth II and released after her death, I would add both in the ruler field. An explanation in the comment field is indeed helpful.

Should we really have a “conceived date”, it sounds completely unrealistic for a coin with a proper date on it?

This is a joke: a young woman came into a bus and asked another passenger, sitting in a seat for handicapped and pregnant people, to get up, so she could sit. The passenger asked to get up, said, but you're not pregnant as far as I can see. Said the young woman: I am since 15 minutes!

We don't need to determine the “conceived date”. It should be fairly easy for referees to determine whether a coin was designed before the death of Elizabeth II (i.e. with her portrait and nothing indicating a commemoration of her death or a “transitional portrait”) or after her death.

Xavier

We don't need to determine the “conceived date”. It should be fairly easy for referees to determine whether a coin was designed before the death of Elizabeth II (i.e. with her portrait and nothing indicating a commemoration of her death or a “transitional portrait”) or after her death.

OK I'll make some corrections both to English and French pages.

Thanks for the clear indications.

Regards,

A field for date of release would be helpful for modern issues that aren't really circulation coins, because circulation coins are near impossible to determine their actual release. But non circulating modern designs have a clear release date. 

Hello,

The guidelines have been updated: https://en.numista.com/catalogue/contributions/instructions.php#ruling_authority 

If a coin was produced for a ruler but released after the death of the ruler, add both the ruler for which the coin was produced and the ruler when the coin was released.

• 2 Pounds - Elizabeth II (5th portrait; 1 oz Fine Silver) (Charles III is added as ruler because the 2023 strike was issued in the autumn of 2022 after the passing of Queen Elizabeth II)

In the example given only 1 ruler is present? 

peterjhalford

In the example given only 1 ruler is present? 

My modification request was still pending. It has been validated in the meantime. You can now see both Elizabeth II and Charles III listed as rulers for this coin.

Although I agree with this feature. I think it looks a bit messy. In the coin features it now looks like coins have 2 rulers. Can this be looked at? Can the posthumous be added somewhere in the coin features section. 

Xavier

Hello,

The guidelines have been updated: https://en.numista.com/catalogue/contributions/instructions.php#ruling_authority 

If a coin was produced for a ruler but released after the death of the ruler, add both the ruler for which the coin was produced and the ruler when the coin was released.

• 2 Pounds - Elizabeth II (5th portrait; 1 oz Fine Silver) (Charles III is added as ruler because the 2023 strike was issued in the autumn of 2022 after the passing of Queen Elizabeth II)

Point 3 in the Guidelines for conditional informations and precisions:

3. Conditional precisions

Posthumous issue

Titles of posthumous issues (just after the ruler’s death; for rulers from the past, see above) should mention “Posthumous” following the ruler’s name, separated by a comma.

• 20 Kreuzer - Franciscus I, Posthumous

@Xavier French and English guidelines are different for point 3 for Posthumous issue, why ? Is it a simple translation error ?

The result in French is really bad looking. See French page of : N#358858

I personally think the qualifier Posthumous should stick with the ruler name only separated with a comma as in English. This way the info between the () will be clearer and better looking.

Actual : 1 dollar - Élisabeth II (avers de transition ; FÉO ; Investissement)

Proposition : 1 dollar - Élisabeth II, Posthume (FÉO ; Investissement) ou 1 dollar - Élisabeth II, Avers hommage posthume (FÉO ; Investissement)

I got over rejections for this in the past few days.

Best regards,

Posthumous is used from my understanding when the issue is just after ruler's death.

When its issued for commemorative purpose (or immobilization in medieval times), we use “in the name of” per the guidelines

Creative naming like “posthumous tribute obverse” seems unnecesseray to me. Should be “1 Dollar in the name of Elizabeth II”

Still, this doesn’t answer the questions for Xavier. 😏

Hello,

I adjusted the guidelines, with the choice to have such information in brackets, similar to other types of additional information.

https://en.numista.com/help/coin-name-142.html

The title of posthumous issues (coins issued just after the ruler’s death and the design was not modified yet) should mention “Posthumous” in brackets.

• 5 Pounds - Elizabeth II (Posthumous; 5th portrait; Yale of Beaufort)  (issued shortly after the death of Queen Elizabeth II, without adjustment of the design)

Coins issued in the name of a foreign ruler or a ruler from the past should mention “In the name of …” in brackets.

• 20 Dollars (In the name of George VI; Victory in Europe)  (issued under the reign of Elizbeth II as if the coin was issued by George VI)

https://fr.numista.com/help/le-nom-du-type-142.html

Le titre des pièces émises de manière posthume (juste après le décès du régnant, avant que le dessin de la pièce n'ait été adapté) doivent comprendre la mention "posthume" entre parenthèses :

• 5 livres - Elisabeth II (posthume; 5e portrait; Éale de Beaufort)  (pièces émise juste après le décès de la reine Elizabeth II, sans changement du dessin)

Les pièces émises au nom d'un souverain étranger ou du passé doivent comprendre la mention “au nom de …” entre parenthèses :

• 20 dollars (au nom de George VI ; victoire en Europe)  (pièce émise sous le règle d'Elizabeth II comme si elle avait été émise par George VII)

Well if it’s  your final décision,  will the robot correct all the coin french titles wronly modified by Compendium then?

Compendium is currently working on a batch update to align with these guidelines.

and Compendium will be happy to fix any remaining issue you'd spot ^^

while at it, will it be possible to also translate the titles automaticaly? At least the form if not the entire title. 

Corrections needed to French version of :

N#39340

N#36424

Xavier

Hello,

 

I adjusted the guidelines, with the choice to have such information in brackets, similar to other types of additional information.

 

https://en.numista.com/help/coin-name-142.html

The title of posthumous issues (coins issued just after the ruler’s death and the design was not modified yet) should mention “Posthumous” in brackets.

• 5 Pounds - Elizabeth II (Posthumous; 5th portrait; Yale of Beaufort)  (issued shortly after the death of Queen Elizabeth II, without adjustment of the design)

Coins issued in the name of a foreign ruler or a ruler from the past should mention “In the name of …” in brackets.

• 20 Dollars (In the name of George VI; Victory in Europe)  (issued under the reign of Elizbeth II as if the coin was issued by George VI)

 

https://fr.numista.com/help/le-nom-du-type-142.html

Le titre des pièces émises de manière posthume (juste après le décès du régnant, avant que le dessin de la pièce n'ait été adapté) doivent comprendre la mention "posthume" entre parenthèses :

• 5 livres - Elisabeth II (posthume; 5e portrait; Éale de Beaufort)  (pièces émise juste après le décès de la reine Elizabeth II, sans changement du dessin)

Les pièces émises au nom d'un souverain étranger ou du passé doivent comprendre la mention “au nom de …” entre parenthèses :

• 20 dollars (au nom de George VI ; victoire en Europe)  (pièce émise sous le règle d'Elizabeth II comme si elle avait été émise par George VII)

Can, Should or must? 

How legalistic are we being….?