Rant: Don't offer counterfeit coins in your swap list!

OK, we've all seen swap lists with coins that aren't coins. I'm talking counterfeits, fakes, replicas, etc etc. And the swapper knows the “coin” is fake but offers the “coin” for trade anyway. Maybe they think they're doing the right thing (hey it's not fraud if you advertise that it's fake) but I don't want them. They don't belong here on Numista. Keep them to yourself, or toss them in the bin, better yet: stamp them with the word COPY so future generations will know. But please oh please stop offering fakes for trade here on Numista.

I see this all the time. I'm looking for a coin, I navigate to the coin's page here on Numista, check the list of members offering the coin for trade, search the swap list ready to trade… then BAM! A little note that the coin isn't real. Thanks for telling me, but still a waste of my time. I don't want it. It's not a coin. It's trash.

Here's an example. Not picking on this member in particular, and he hasn't traded coins in several years, but of the 30 silver “coins” in his swap list, 28 are replicas. I don't want a copy, no matter how good it is or even if it's stamped “copy.”

Exchange with MK7 – Numista

In this particular example I was looking for a Queen Vic crown, but not here.

Anyway, some will say I'm right, some will say I'm crazy, some will say a copy fills a void in a collection, some will say that contemporary counterfeits have value, some will say that counterfeit coins are good teaching aids. That's fine. But don't list them for trade here.

Don't be angry, policeman.

   I have a coin in the offer,, it is an imitation of a non-existent coins from the Middle Ages.

"Don't be angry, policeman"?

I am confused and disheartened by your contemptuous appellation. I assume only that you did not understand my post.

The piece cited by you in your reply is not a coin at all, rather it is categorized as exonumia. It was never a coin and thus requires no explanatory “copy” mark.

My rant, above, refers solely to counterfeit copies of coins, not fantasy pieces readily recognized as such.

TCon

“Don't be angry, policeman”

And I read your first sentence in your post clearly even though through the translator ,, do not offer,, I also have 5hal.  1924 I wouldn't even think of offering it,, you don't have to appreciate it,,You  don't know what you're talking about, man, look at the “Czechoslovakian 5 hal. 1924,,

N#5167

modern mints are sought after and rare and sell for high prices.

My defense is always an attack and you are dealing with something you don't understand, that's why,,policeman, We have longer traditions in minting, as well as other customs of numismatists.

TCon

“Don't be angry, policeman”

Is it a fake?

Imitation silver?

https://en.numista.com/forum/topic134103.html#p1078713

Read your first paragraph to yourself, think about your interests and blinders.

,,I'm going out, I'm going to throw an imitation into the sea on the beach for the joy of searchers, you pissed me off, I'm going to throw 20 coins there today,,

Ivan

Oh Mimael. I “pissed” you off? Your aggression and vulgarity are neither necessary nor appropriate. I urge you to edit your post and to maintain a degree of decorum.

I stand by my argument. Copies, fakes, replicas, counterfeits etc are not coins. Numista members should not offer such items in their coin swap lists. You may wish to offer these items as exonumia alongside tokens and medals, but not as coins.

Furthermore, the prevalance of replicas, as with the 1924 5 Haléřů you mentioned, does not legitimize the replicas. Those pieces are not coins and should not be offered in a swap list as a coin, even when the member notes that the piece is a copy. Again, that member may wish to list the piece as exonumia.

However, I am less comcerned with the example you cited than I am with common date coins. Few collectors would mistake a replica 1913 US liberty head nickel with a real coin, of which only 5 are known. Such replicas are easily identified and obviously qualify as exonumia. Yet, many members here list counterfeits, copies, and replicas of common date coins, and those do not belong in a swap list.

(edited to correct typo: 1925 to 1924)

TCon

Furthermore, the prevalance of replicas, as with the 1925 5 Haléřů you mentioned, does not legitimize the replicas. Those pieces are not coins and should not be offered in a swap list as a coin, even when the member notes that the piece is a copy. Again, that member may wish to list the piece as exonumia.

 

However, I am less comcerned with the example you cited than I am with common date coins. Few collectors would mistake a replica 1913 US liberty head nickel with a real coin, of which only 5 are known. Such replicas are easily identified and obviously qualify as exonumia. Yet, many members here list counterfeits, copies, and replicas of common date coins, and those do not belong in a swap list.

1924

  I will not put "copies" on my imitations and fakes, and that's it.

I edited it and I will keep it decent.,, I live at home in places where the Celts minted imitations of Greek coins,,

I reconsidered.

I take the cop back and I'm not pissed off anymore.

The whole problem is in your generalization of the whole thing ,,SWAP,,

,,Don't offer counterfeit coins in your 

Please write it clearly for us who are sitting in the sun:

-A Numist member who offers coins for exchange, and knowingly puts a counterfeit or imitation instead of a real coin is a fraud.

-whoever wants to exchange or sell a coin in the offer and puts an imitation of it there commits an offence

,,swap list,, is the entire offer and it also includes newly minted rare coins, however, they probably all have their place on our website, and if not, it should be created.

My apologies, either the translator is stupid here, or I have too much head in the sun, or it's an understanding of the two worlds of numismatics.

Ivan

Interesting back and forth here that was a great bridge to the following question.

Why is it illegal to own counterfeit banknotes but not coins? I know people in the USA would be offered an arrest warrant if they posted a counterfeit USA note on the trade list. Why don’t countries make it less desirable to have counterfeit coins? It would seem that not offering such blatant examples of law breaker handiwork would help the hobby and economies alike.

I can't answer the question for every country, but here's some source material on US law…

How can I distinguish between a genuine U.S. coin and a replica?

It is often difficult to distinguish between genuine U.S. coins and replicas. The Hobby Protection Act requires that all imitation coins and other numismatic items be permanently marked with the word “COPY”.

Source: Replicas of U.S. Coins | U.S. Mint (usmint.gov)

And here's some reading material related to “uttering” (passing) counterfeit domestic and foreign banknotes and coins. It's too far removed from this topic to discuss at length, but it's good reference material:

USCODE-2015-title18-partI-chap25-sec485.pdf (govinfo.gov)

So, in my opinion, better safe than sorry: if you suspect a coin or banknote is not authentic don't offer it for trade here on Numista.

PS: I read that the UK switched it's pound coins a few years back because of the remarkable prevalance of counterfeit coins. Was it 20% or so were counterfeit? That's a serious problem. The newer coins are much more difficult to copy, but I'm sure someone is trying very hard as we speak!

In my opinion I totally agree. Especially when you search for more valuable coins on Numista and every time more than half the coins available are fakes! It disheartening. If i had a magic wand I would melt every fake coin in the world, even your precious contemporary Counterfeit collection!

 But my opinion is of zero value, I don’t have the wand and they continue to make fakes…

TCon

 Yet, many members here list counterfeits, copies, and replicas of common date coins, and those do not belong in a swap list.

Have a nice day.

I already have my PC and good WIFI at home, so I'm writing to you - because I owe you an explanation as to why I fell off the deckchair on the beach after reading your post.  ( The WIFI was crashing and the translator was going crazy)

As a collector, I have never ordered anything from China, I do not own fakes, and the replicas I had were taken from me by collectors from the USA (there is a demand there) -And that's why the offer is oriented towards the US market.

Our numismatic traditions and specifics are slightly different in the collector market- from your habits and goal in collecting coins.

*We agree that a fake coin is a fraud, it is a forgery and it does not belong in collections but among fakes.

My SWAP list is one whole and included exonumia in the past, it also included imitations and mints (until the collectors from the USA took them all away from me)

An example of an exchange with an American collector - I love US cents and so I exchanged 14 coins for a cent and there was also a replica and look it was under exonumia:

This is a common replica of a coin that was found on our territory 20 km from me-it was under exonumia and I put it on the website myself.

https://www.ceska-numismatika.cz/repliky-historickych-minci/

And two replicas of Prague pennies were also requested by collectors from the USA.

So please respect that we have imitations and replicas and they belong to exonumia and can be on the swap list of course yes not as coins but as exonumia - we all agree here.

Your copycat law is your American and cannot be imposed and applied to our traditions.

Example:

During his lifetime, our Emperor Francis Joseph I had a new coinage of ducats minted, and they are still being minted. 

The year of minting of the old coin is newly minted with its regulation 1915 and does not differ even by a mark with another inscription - it simply does not differ in anything from the original coin.

https://www.zlatabanka.com/dukat-frantisek-josef-i-1915-novorazba-zlata-mince.html

https://www.google.com/search?q=Duk%C3%A1t+1915+novora%C5%BEba&rlz=1C1NHXL_csCZ927CZ927&sxsrf=AB5stBgbgdDK20AtauIi4C0Qf5EQ367TWA:1689855959670&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwic0smBpJ2AAxWRgv0HHWm2BckQ_AUoAXoECAEQAw&biw=1242&bih=568&dpr=1.1

The Czechoslovak coin collector should be happy with the new mintages, our rarest circulating coin the already mentioned 5 hallé5 1924 mintage was repeated several times by the state mint and they are popular collector's pieces.

 209,93 $ - and it is made of copper, it is also minted in gold, which is more expensive

https://www.google.com/search?q=5+hal%C3%A9%C5%99+1924+novora%C5%BEby&rlz=1C1NHXL_csCZ927CZ927&sxsrf=AB5stBiTDB1RCgEwUdYsxfT6-cPZd5p12Q:1689859812947&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjErvuusp2AAxWeg_0HHSv2BsUQ_AUoAnoECAEQBA&biw=1242&bih=568&dpr=1.1

And there are many such examples.

Example:

One of my coins was crying - she had tears in her eyes - I ask her, "what's wrong with you?", and she: "I'm sad - it's my birthday - the day of creation ,, and I'd like to go back to that plac. So we're flying - my wife has packed her things, my son has packed the grandchildren and we're flying in 2 hours we'll be there.  you come home to take a look.

Thrace › Mesembria  

This is my coin that I put on the website (Mesembria)

https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces151865.html

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mesembria

https://www.google.com/search?q=Nesebar&tbm=isch&ved=2ahUKEwicyfmwsp2AAxUV_rsIHc_5AwAQ2-

And now what China is doing to us with counterfeits- fraud/fake coin:

Fake imitation - Made in China   (And especially for the US market where there is huge interest)

A real coin has less patina - that's why collectors prefer a fake coin.

Athena is depicted as: ,, Athena Alcidemos,,-Athena sculpted by Pheidias, standing between the Propylaea and the Parthenon on the Acropolis in the Acropolis and Athena.

It can never be confused with imitations of the Celts who also minted Athens - and also gold coins, the ,,Celts-Bojove,, tribe, 30 km from me.

Easily recognizable-Athena Alcidemos-with shield it is also an imitation of Greek coins, although the Celts had a different taste in design.

And this was the whole problem,, writing on gold ducats and Celtic coins,, Fake,, according to American law. and especially a long stay in the sun.

Conclusion : My coin is unhappy with what it earned,, Mesembria is a tourist money factory and a peninsula circus:

somewhere around here there were coin minting workshops

But the large number of Byzantine churches does not belong here. So just a shortened version and an apology to America.

Ahoj Ivan