OK mais ça ne colle pas avec le fait que la 1902 et 1903 sont indiquées “narrow truncation" alors que l'espace est large : peut-être que les KM sont corrects mais pas les descriptions. Il n'y a rien à faire : il faut trouver l'erreur qui fait que les 1902 et 1903 sont indiquées “narrow” alors qu'elles sont “large”… Peut-être que SCWC peut contenir des erreurs… En tout cas, il y a une astuce qui m'échappe complètement…
Your identification of KM120.1 and KM120.2 is NOT correct. The coin illustrated as KM120.2 is the wide bust variety, this is the same type as the 1898 25 cents coin. So this coin is actually KM120.1. The coin illustrated as KM120.1 is the narrow bust variety used for the majority of the 1901 dated 25 cent coins and for the coins of this type with later dates. For the wide truncation variety the lower right point of the bust is closer to the last N of NEDERLANDEN than for the narrow bust variety. Please correct the description.
OK mais ça ne colle pas avec le fait que la 1902 et 1903 sont indiquées “narrow truncation" alors que l'espace est large : peut-être que les KM sont corrects mais pas les descriptions. Il n'y a rien à faire : il faut trouver l'erreur qui fait que les 1902 et 1903 sont indiquées “narrow” alors qu'elles sont “large”… Peut-être que SCWC peut contenir des erreurs… En tout cas, il y a une astuce qui m'échappe complètement…
Cordialement,
Paul
We're talking about the variants on the 1901 coins, not the later years….
And YES, we know, that KM contains errors, but that's not proven in this case? Let's find a member, who has a Dutch catalog and see, what the Dutch have to say about this? @smvdbrink@Dutchgalego@Salaction
120.1 with the wide truncation, the nose pointing to the empty space in between. 120.2 with the narrow truncation, the nose pointing to the letter A.
The pictures on Numista shows the differences perfectly.
So for the year line 1901, it is correct as there are two versions of it.
The year lines for 1902/1903 however seem to have two versions as well, so maybe those simply need to be added? And the SWSC pictures seems to be incomplete on the data.
KM is correct, what is wrong is the attribution of the two types as given by Numista in the comments. Truncation refers to the width of the cutoff of the bust. So a wide truncation means that there is a small space between the lower part of the bust and the lettering and a narrow truncation means that there is a larger space. If you look at the pictures of KM120.1 and KM120.2 in the comments you can clearly see that the space between the lower part of the bust and the lettering (last N of NEDERLANDEN) of KM120.2 is smaller than of KM120.1. Thus the coin described as 120.2 actually is 120.1 (wide truncation and hence small space) and the one described as 120.1 is actually 120.2 (narrow truncation and hence large space). This is also clear when you compare the coins described in the auctions mentioned on the lower part of the page with the illustrations of 120.1 and 120.2. The coin from
Heritage AuctionsWednesday & Thursday World & Ancient Coins Select Auction 232204Lot 64614 is what from the comments in Numista should be KM120.2. But this is the wide truncation coin as correctly described by the auction house and as comment in the table. And the coin from Schulman Auction 368 Lot 1054 is what Numista comments describes as KM120.1. But this is the narrow truncation one as correctly described by the auction house. So the Heritage one is actually KM120.1 and the Schulman coin is KM120.2.
The description of the 25 cents coins (second type of Wilhelmina) in the standard Handbook of Dutch coinage is as follows:
The story of the two different types is the following. The design of the head was made by P.Pander. The dies were engraved by J.P.M. Menger (stated wrongly by Numista). The design (second type of bust made on occasion of the coronation of the Queen) was first used on the 1898 series of coins. Early in 1901 new dies were engraved by J.C Wienecke with a slightly changed design. These dies were used first in 1901 and were also used for the later dated coins of this type. So the first type was used in 1898 and for a short time in 1901. This is KM120.1. The second type is KM120.2. No 25 cents coins dated 1900 were minted for the Netherlands. There were however minted 25 cents coins for the Dutch colony of Curacao. These coins also have the first type of bust.
Hopefully my explanation and the information given is sufficient to correct the attribution in the comment.
Thank you Salaction for your agreement. I now see the cause of the confusion. In the Numista Comments the word truncation is taken to refer to the distance between the words WILHELMINA and KONINGIN and not the width of the cut-off of the bust. This latter meaning is what is meant in the description of the varieties. In Dutch catalogs the varieties are described as “brede hals” and “smalle hals” or, in English: “wide neck” and “narrow neck” I do not know if the width of the neck indeed varies but what differs is the space between the lower right point of the truncation of the neck and the lettering. When these are close it is the wide truncation variety (KM120.1) and if further apart it is the narrow truncation type (KM120.2).
I have modified my graphic, and have shown the two ways to differentiate the two km#. My preference goes to the space between WILHEMINA and KÖNIGIN, so much easier to see?
Do you want to have both in the comments section?
Basically it would be good, if you can agree on both the graphics use of the KM#?
I’d say anything in the comments should be as minimal as possible, but enough to explain people to know which version they have with help of the graphics.
First of all “truncation” means the width of the cut-off of the bust. It does not mean the distance between the two words KONINGIN and WILHELMINA, nor the distance between the point of the neck and the letter N. According to the Cambridge dictionary the meaning of TRUNCATION is: the act of making something shorter or quicker, especially by removing the end of it.
The identification given on the first picture is not correct. What is stated as KM#120.1 is actually KM#120.2 and 120.2 is 120.1. The same applies to the second picture where the coin on the left is KM#120.2 and the one on the right is KM#120.1.
I do agree that the difference in distance between the point of the neck and the letter N is difficult to see.
The correct description of the two varieties is given below. I have added an extra identification: the tail end of the “2” in the value.
Since I don't have the Dutch catalog, I'm not making a CR for the year lines, only for the comments section, so @hagroend will have to take care of the year lines, which are ALL inverted, I think?
Nearly correct! In the lower picture the enlargemets of the lower part of the neck are switched. The two left ones should be on the right and the two on the right must move to the left. This is together with the descriptions. The pictues of the “25” with descriptions are correct. The text “wide truncation (red arrow)” should be changed into “large distance between point of neck an letter N (red arrow)” And also “narrow truncation (red arrow)” should be “small distance between point of neck an letter N (red arrow)”
Quote: I'm not making a CR for the year lines, only for the comments section, so @hagroend will have to take care of the year lines, which are ALL inverted, I think?
I take it that with the year lines you mean the References in the Table? “KM# 120.1 Wide truncation in legend” should be changed, the “in legend” should be dropped. Also for “KM# 120.2 Narrow truncation in legend”. The KM references are OK
I have made the graphics according to the Dutch catalog. The year lines are probably inverted, unless you consider the truncation as being “nosewise” on the text. I have submitted the graphics as shown.
