Translation of regnal numbers

Good morning All. I have been having a discussion with another referee regarding what translation should be given for regnal numbers. My proposal was that it should be translated out as you might say it when reading a monarch's title, i.e. ‘Queen Elizabeth II’ becomes ‘Queen Elizabeth the Second’, whereas the other referee didn't think it should be translated, i.e. ‘Queen Elizabeth II’ stays as ‘Queen Elizabeth II’. I don't believe this question is covered in the catalogue guidelines (at least, I couldn't find it) so would be interested to hear your views on this.

II is a short hand for 'the second' and I think that is the most common use.

It is in the guidelines. See section 4.3 of the general guidelines:

 

4.3 Regnal numbers

Regnal numbers follow the name in Roman numerals with no ordinal indicators:

• Henry II  ||  Louis XVI
• George 6  ||  Henry I.  ||  Louis the XIVth

And this matches other online references:

• Wikipedia: Elizabeth II
• Encyclopædia Britannica: Elizabeth II

Hello everyone, I am the referee with whom @radrick007  had the “discussion”, prior modification request.
My opinion on the matter, in the translation section, is that both options are valid, since in both the meaning is perfectly understood and both are correct in English. In addition, in the translation section, the Numista Guideliness does not comment on this, so I do not see the need to change Charles II for Charles the Second (although it is also correct too).

I would like to make it clear that the Charles the Second option seems to me to be equally correct, which should be an option as valid as Charles II. What I do not agree with is that it is necessarily the only accepted and valid option.

I also personally prefer Alfonso XIII than Alfonso the Thirteenth and Juan Carlos I than Juan Carlos the First.

This subject is clear in FAQs of Numista:

https://en.numista.com/help/add-or-modify-a-ruling-authority-in-the-catalogue-192.html

https://en.numista.com/help/general-guidelines-for-all-texts-186.html (4.3 Regnal numbers)

Also the rules are different for each languages (see the FAQ version in that language):

• In English:
  Regnal numbers follow the name in Roman numerals with no ordinal indicators:
  ✔️ Henry II  ||  Louis XVI
  ❌ George 6  ||  Henry I.  ||  Louis the XIVth
• In French:
  Regnal numbers follow the name in Roman numerals with no ordinal indicators except for the first of the lineage or appellation:
  ✔️ Henri II  ||  François Ier  ||  Louis XVI
  ❌ George 6  ||  Henri I.  ||  Louis le XIVème
• In Spanish:
  Regnal numbers follow the name in Roman numerals with no ordinal indicators: [RAE]
  ✔️ Juan Carlos I  ||  Felipe VI
  ❌ Juan Carlos 1  ||  Juan Carlos 1.º  ||  Felipe 6.º  ||  Felipe VI.º

For avoid doubts or questions like this topic, I added a link to the official reference in Spanish (the RAE).🤨

While not entirely the same, the guidelines for the translation of the lettering field does suggest that since “II” and “the second” are the same in English no translation is needed.  Why clutter up the translation field with information that is already obvious?

The translation field contains the translation to English of the lettering field.

Dates and lettering blocks that have the same spelling in English should be omitted from the translation field

Then we do not talk about the same thing.

• The lettering field must be a copy of the symbols of the coin. If the coins has the text ELIZABETH THE SECOND, the lettering field must contain exactly this text. https://en.numista.com/help/lettering-obverse-reverse-and-edge-125.html
• But if we write this in the translation of the lettering field https://en.numista.com/help/translation-of-the-lettering-obverse-reverse-and-edge-128.html or other field, the rule is write Elizabeth II.

About…

rsirian1

While not entirely the same, the guidelines for the lettering field does suggest that since “II” and “the second” are the same in English no translation is needed.  Why clutter up the translation field with information that is already obvious?

 

The translation field contains the translation to English of the lettering field.

Dates and lettering blocks that have the same spelling in English should be omitted from the translation field

In my opinion, if the lettering is in English, the translation in English is not needed. I think the unabridged field makes no sense here.

davidhs

 

 

In my opinion, if the lettering is in English, the translation in English is not needed. 

Yes, that is what I said.  Also, I meant the guidelines for the translation of the lettering field. Corrected my original post.

davidhs

Then we do not talk about the same thing.

• The lettering field must be a copy of the symbols of the coin. If the coins has the text ELIZABETH THE SECOND, the lettering field must contain exactly this text. https://en.numista.com/help/lettering-obverse-reverse-and-edge-125.html
• But if we write this in the translation of the lettering field https://en.numista.com/help/translation-of-the-lettering-obverse-reverse-and-edge-128.html or other field, the rule is write Elizabeth II.

 

@davidhs Thank you for your reply. I have looked at the guidelines link to the translation field and I can't see any reference to regnal numbers, perhaps I'm missing something?

radrick007 I have looked at the guidelines link to the translation field and I can't see any reference to regnal numbers, perhaps I'm missing something?

Its why we have a general section for guidelines about each language, to avoid repeating same rules everywhere :-)

Regnal numbers are covered in the general section. They cannot be considered as abbreviation imo. Hence no need to write down a longer form in unabridged legend field, even less in translation.

radrick007

davidhs

Then we do not talk about the same thing.

• The lettering field must be a copy of the symbols of the coin. If the coins has the text ELIZABETH THE SECOND, the lettering field must contain exactly this text. https://en.numista.com/help/lettering-obverse-reverse-and-edge-125.html
• But if we write this in the translation of the lettering field https://en.numista.com/help/translation-of-the-lettering-obverse-reverse-and-edge-128.html or other field, the rule is write Elizabeth II.

 

@davidhs Thank you for your reply. I have looked at the guidelines link to the translation field and I can't see any reference to regnal numbers, perhaps I'm missing something?

The translation field is a free text field and admit text in English and French, so the rules to apply are the general. In other words, the FAQ to this field say nothing about the regnal numbers so the rule to applies is... the general.🤨

 See https://en.numista.com/forum/topic148565.html#p1174842