Micronation Sealand as Local Coinage instead of medals.

As @Xavier  said in this topic a new forum thread should be opened to ask about micronations.

I bought an expensive Sealand coin because was in the Numista (a site that I thrust) as a Micronation.

But since everything is mixed and blended now, Sealand Coins are in a confuse category, under “Pretend Issuer” a sub-category of fantasy coins.

Fantasy coins are just round metals with something written in it, I can make some, you can too. That is pure fantasy.

Apart to that, we have the story of Sealand:

The Principality of Sealand,  also called the “world's smallest country”, is a self-declared micronation established in 1967 by Roy Bates on Roughs Tower, a decommissioned WWII sea fort located in international waters off the coast of England. 

Originally intended for pirate radio broadcasts, Bates instead declared the platform an indepndent nation. Sealand's claim to sovereignty gained attention after a 1968 British court ruled it fell outside UK jurisdiction. 

In 1978, a dramatic coup attempt by German and Dutch businessmen, during which Bates’ son was briefly taken hostage, ended with the invaders being captured and held as ‘prisoners of war’. The involvement of a German diplomat negotiating their release led Sealand to claim indirect recognition, though no official recognition has been granted by any country. 

Despite its unrecognized status, Sealand remains an enduring symbol of sovereignty and eccentric independence

Different from these dumb exonumia invented by people,  Sealand issued coins to raise funds, those coins are not brass cheap coins, but silver and gold were used.

The coins of Sealand are expensive and sought by collectors, because there is this amazing background story behind them, and they were made by the Bates family and not in a basement for someone just trying to fool collectors inventing coins without any relation with the country or pretended country.

Sealand coins should not be side-by-side with other fantasy items and in an obscure place in the catalog, even hard to find for the novice collector using the site.

Those who do not want to “see” the coins in the catalog can just ignore them, it is unfair to hide them for everyone just because some more active forum members don't like them.

Sealand on Ucoin:

https://en.ucoin.net/catalog/?country=sealand

Sealand official site:

https://sealandgov.org/en-sa/pages/the-story

Story of Bates:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paddy_Roy_Bates#cite_note-Interview-4

Sealand articles:

https://www.brownandhudson.com/where-to-why/article/sealand

Sealand on news:

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/micronation-sealand-bates-royal-family-60-minutes-transcript/

Browsing the fantasy items will be very clear the disruption between Sealand Coins and other foolish pieces of metal.

Of course, if the esteemed referees consider it all the same, please ignore this request.
 

Thank you for the space.

Geison

Hello,
 

As you mentioned, Sealand is as “self-declared” micronation and the coins were issued “to raise funds”. So they are not issued by an official government and they are not intended to serve as currency. Even if the story is nicer, I don't see a significant difference with other fantasy items made in the name of made-up micronations (example: https://en.numista.com/forum/topic152394.html) except that they are better quality and more successful in selling to collectors. 

What would you recommend as criteria to differentiate? And what would you change in the way we list the Sealand coins on Numista?

Alos, I would also like to clarify a few points from your message:

• “I bought an expensive Sealand coin because was in the Numista (a site that I thrust) as a Micronation.”
  Sealand is still listed as a micronation (see the issuer list: https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pays.php)
• “Sealand Coins are in a confuse category, under “Pretend Issuer” a sub-category of fantasy coins.”
  There are no “sub-category of fantasy coins”
• “Sealand coins should not be […] in an obscure place in the catalog, even hard to find for the novice collector using the site.”
  “it is unfair to hide them for everyone just because some more active forum members don't like them.”
  Sealand coins are easy to find: just type “Sealand” in the search form with default settings. You can type it either in the field for issuer or in the general field.

I would recommend the status quo ante: Together with the list of some micronations, outside fantasy items.

About “hidden”:

When I search

I have no results, of course, I need to select Medals (something not much related to coins I guess)

The tree says catalog/Sealand

but is a Pretended Issuer

under medals, and after that under Fantasy Items

I apologize if the current criteria is the best solution, but looks unfair or a bit confused, being together with a fantasy coin that I can just invent now.

Anyway, thank you for the comment. 

I tried.

Anyway I will leave the link of the coins here so they will appear in the coins page, to help future and current frustrated collectors.

N#24526

N#24527

N#24528

N#24531

N#24532

N#24522

N#24524

N#388644

N#24525

thank you again 

Why Hutt River is different from Sealand?

Geison

Why Hutt River is different from Sealand?

Hutt River was an self declared principality enclave within an existing sovereign country, The Commonwealth of Australia. 

Sealand was just a man made platform on a few stilts rusting away stuck in the North Sea.

Mike

Geison

Why Hutt River is different from Sealand?

I categorized Hutt River as local coins as I understand that some of their coins were intended for circulation, based on this forum thread: https://en.numista.com/forum/topic87670.html#p744823

Geison

being together with a fantasy coin that I can just invent now.

You are free to build your own beautiful story and produce round pieces of metal for collectors just like Sealand!

If you manage to build a story as nice as Sealand, your coins might well be as thought-after as the coins of Sealand.

Thank you for the answer and time.

If you said is a medal. Is a medal.

It is time to move Sealand coins from medals (no sense) to Local Coins.

Here are much more evidence than Hutt River:

Sealand is seven nautical miles outside British waters, where British courts had no jurisdiction.
Source: https://www.npr.org/2012/10/13/162847229/remembering-paddy-roy-bates-prince-of-sealand

Sealand’s government has consistently presented the coins as its legitimate national currency.
Source: https://sealandgov.org/en-sa?srsltid=AfmBOoo9FRK2BKipjr9Lz74wflC2Cw5Xzlcl-MBBr02ZdGlpx5ZMvVee

Sealand’s coins have de jure status as the principality’s legal tender. Numismatic authorities and Sealand’s own communications treat them as real currency. For example, the Numismatic Guaranty Company (NGC) notes that Sealand “issued legal tender (in Sealand) coinage” starting in 1972

Source: https://www.ngccoin.com/news/article/4852/The-Coins-Of-The-Principality-Of-Sealand/

The coins had parity with US Dollar:
Sources: https://web.archive.org/web/20071102083747/http://www.imperial-collection.net/sealand03.html

The constitution of 1975 and 1989  is online on wikisource, where we can read the State Bank have legitimacy to issue coins (§ 4, 5 and 6)
Source: https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Constitutions_of_1975_and_of_1989/Constitution_of_1989/Law_concerning_the_State_Bank_of_the_Principality_of_Sealand

Ucoin, the site used as reference for many collectors (that have an amazing table that everyone love), recognize as CIRCULATING COINS.
Source: https://en.ucoin.net/coin/sealand-25-cents-1994/?tid=100779

Of course the coins didn't drop in circulation, but that is the case of an infinite numbers of coins on Numista catalog, like for instance Hutt River.
Source (there is a lack of economy) : https://www.amusingplanet.com/2014/04/the-principality-of-sealand-or-how-to.html

Sealand is out of reach of any national government, how come?:
https://www.coinworld.com/news/world-coins/platform-off-coast-of-england-serves-as-home-to-sealand.html

Reputable site worldcoins also tells the history of Sealand:
https://coinweek.com/coin-tells-remarkable-story-sealand-commemorative-coin-50th-anniversary-independence/

Recognizing Hutt River coins as local issues while excluding Sealand is inconsistent for a reputable catalog like Numista, unless it reflects a personal preference of the micronations referees.

Three things.

I wouldn't listen to anything Ucoins says or does.

The Principality of Sealand is NOW technically within UK territorial waters. In 1987, the UK extended its territorial waters from 3 to 12 nautical miles, bringing Sealand within British territorial waters. According to Wikipedia, Sealand is located approximately 7 miles from the British coast, meaning it falls within the newly extended 12-mile territorial limit. 

Also Hutt River coins did circulate and were used in Hutt River Province.

Mike

brismike

I wouldn't listen to anything Ucoins says or does.

I understand and respect your personal preference

The Principality of Sealand is NOW technically within UK territorial waters. 

Agree, NOW.

Also Hutt River coins did circulate and were used in Hutt River Province.

We can have the same type of sources of Sealand.

Medal-coins don't circulate - even though Sealand's ones bear denominations in Dollars & Cents.

I would still list them under ‘Coins’ - but as Non-circulating.

Aidan.

They are Medals purporting to be Coins. They can't be used to buy anything.

Therefore they are Fantasy Coins, a figment of someones imagination. 

Fantasy Coins are listed under Medals.

Mike

So a Donald Duck Play money is a token

And partially recognized countries are medals.

Looks odd, but who are we to argue.

Geison

Also Hutt River coins did circulate and were used in Hutt River Province.

We can have the same type of sources of Sealand.

Can you please share these sources?

All the sources I checked indicated that these objects were never intended to circulate as currency. That's the only reason why I decided not to consider them as coins.

They are not intended for any other practical purpose, so I don't consider them tokens either.

"they issued legal tender"

Source: https://www.ngccoin.com/news/article/4852/The-Coins-Of-The-Principality-Of-Sealand/

Even if was not intended for circulate, that would be ok since lots of countries issued coins only to rise funds

Example: N#118350

Might even be better than a Local Coin

Examples:

N#437783

N#390522

N#53969

N#426877

What about collector coins?

N#165889

N#138185

N#464887

N#466596

Anyway anything would be better than call the coins fantasy.

Also, of course, that proves anything, but the Sealand coins are sold for high values on stores (as I paid expensive value on mine, trusting on Numista that time), so why are typical fantasy coins sold for 1 EUR, while Sealand coins go for up to 100 EUR?  …that says something.

We know it’s hard to change when confirmation bias is already in place, but we trust in the impartiality of the team and believe these pieces deserve their rightful place,  out of respect for the  collectors habits.

Peace

Geison

 

Might even be better than a Local Coin

Examples:

N#390522

 

Nor sure what you mean by “even better than a Local Coin" as this coin you mention (even though for a limited period) could be used locally to buy stuff and could also be redeemed at face value (100 BEF)

BramVB

Geison

 

Might even be better than a Local Coin

Examples:

N#390522

 

Nor sure what you mean by “even better than a Local Coin" as this coin you mention (even though for a limited period) could be used locally to buy stuff and could also be redeemed at face value (100 BEF)

Thank you for your response and help
I just picked some random local coins, since most collectors are not familiar for what they are.

Geison

"they issued legal tender"

Source: https://www.ngccoin.com/news/article/4852/The-Coins-Of-The-Principality-Of-Sealand/

I think the problem here is that, being a micronation, they can claim whatever they want. For example: they claim to have over 300 citizens, but if my understanding is correct, you can apply to be a citizen online without actually having to visit Sealand. From what I have read, there is only one permanent resident within its area and no businesses to spend physical currency at. So… how can they have a physical legal tender currency if there is physically no one to use it and no places to use it at? They can claim it so, but that doesn't mean it could actually happen. Not yet at least--perhaps they will grow a bit in the future, but that would be a future issue.

Hutt River, on the other hand (and I am just going off memory here, so please correct me if I'm wrong), at least had a couple dozen people, and I believe a couple buildings like a post office which could accept their currency. If I recall correctly, they made the bare minimum requirements to have their coins circulating. And Sealand just isn't quite there yet.

Geison

Also, of course, that proves anything, but the Sealand coins are sold for high values on stores (as I paid expensive value on mine, trusting on Numista that time), so why are typical fantasy coins sold for 1 EUR, while Sealand coins go for up to 100 EUR?  …that says something.

Marketing and composition.

Essentially anyone can make a fantasy coin, which means the vast majority of fantasy coins will be exceedingly cheap (no marketing and cheap compositions). However, Sealand actually has good marketing and uses more valuable compositions. And that, in my view, does not change the status of these coins to being non-fantasy issues. Many silver and gold fantasy issues exist, and none of them should be classified as local coins just because they are valuable.

And with that being said, just because Numista lists them as fantasy coins, it does not make them any less valuable either. People will still buy these coins for what they are worth because they want these coins, and that is perfectly fine. Collect what you want and how you want!  :)

Thank you for your kind and objective response.

 I must agree, I just think those pieces are something different from fantasy.

Also, allow me to disagree with: 

Sulfur it does not make them any less valuable eithe

Yes it does, Numista have a heavy impact in many coin deals.

Anyway, I do not care about value since I am not a coin dealer, I just think Numista would be better if would keep aligned of collectors habits.

Once again, I appreciate your thoughtful and sincere reply.

Geison