More information needed about 1599 1/24 Thaler from Brunswic

Recently I bought the coin below, sold to me as a 1599 1/24 Thaler from Braunschweig-Wolfenbüttel. It seems to be missing on Numista, so I would like to add it, but I need more information about this coin first. Weight and size: 2.0 grams, 0.85 mm thick, diameter ranging from about 21.3 mm to about 21.7 mm (should I use 21.3 or 21.7?). I assume the material is bullion, but I don't know the percentage of silver.
The lettering on my coin is incomplete, how should I handle that? Also, I don't know what ruler/issuer to add. I will appreciate any help!

When I look for 1/24 Thaler on Numista, I only get 12 results. At least these coins have a similar design on the reverse:
N#459395 and N#136399

The coin below is offered for sale as well as a 1599 1/24 Thaler from Braunschweig-Wolfenbüttel, but it has completely different lettering and obverse design:
https://www.ma-shops.nl/loebbers/item.php?id=221122149&fwdKey=cb47530ab318371baad0fdc044e16205067b0172

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reichsm%C3%BCnzfu%C3%9F

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coinage_of_Saxony#Imperial_thalers

Period imperial 1/24 thaler should be at .500 fineness.

Other name is groschen. Look for weight and not just for the name. Polish-Lithuanian Commonweath is bad example to compare with HRE and there was significant emotional event after 1618 that impacted coin quality in Europe.

Most of lettering can be decoded.

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MONE(TA) NOV(A) BRVNSWI? - you are probably looking at City of Brunswick and not at Duchy/Principality of Brunswick-Wolfenbüttel. First image is similar to their 1 thaler (https://numismaster.com/MC_93952)

RVDOL Z D(EI) G(RATIA) RO(MAN) IM(PERATOR) S(EMPER) AV(GUSTUS) (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rudolf_II,_Holy_Roman_Emperor)

tokul

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reichsm%C3%BCnzfu%C3%9F

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coinage_of_Saxony#Imperial_thalers

 

Period imperial 1/24 thaler should be at .500 fineness.

Other name is groschen. Look for weight and not just for the name. Polish-Lithuanian Commonweath is bad example to compare with HRE and there was significant emotional event after 1618 that impacted coin quality in Europe.

 

Most of lettering can be decoded.

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MONE(TA) NOV(A) BRVNSWI? - you are probably looking at City of Brunswick and not at Duchy/Principality of Brunswick-Wolfenbüttel. First image is similar to their 1 thaler (https://numismaster.com/MC_93952)

 

RVDOL Z D(EI) G(RATIA) RO(MAN) IM(PERATOR) S(EMPER) AV(GUSTUS) (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rudolf_II,_Holy_Roman_Emperor)

 

 

Thank you for your answer, tokul!

Several of these coins are indeed listed as Groschen. That 2nd wiki-page also mentions that. When looking for Groshen in German States, I found two other useful examples, one with in the text RVDOL II: N#216298, 
and the other with RVDOL Z: N#175719.

It is most logical that the Z stands for Zwei (two) or Zweite (second).
I agree with MONE(TA) NOV(A) BRVNSWI?, where most likely the ? is a C. A ‘C’ would fit perfectly, as the bottom end of a C looks present.

That second link is also helpful for the weight besides the fineness, the standard is 2.15 grams. As my own worn down coin weighs 2.0 grams I'll stick with the 2.15 grams, the missing 0.15 grams can be partially explained with the missing letters and possibly a little coin clipping as well.

With all this information I'm ready to register the coin. When it gets accepted, I'll leave a link below later. When anyone has additional information, then that can always be added later.

Definitely looks to be a groschen from the city of Braunschweig.

i didn't find it in Jesse reference and cannot find past auction listings so looks like a rarer piece.

apuking

Definitely looks to be a groschen from the city of Braunschweig.

i didn't find it in Jesse reference and cannot find past auction listings so looks like a rarer piece.

Thank you for your search, apuking! The design is very similar to this later coin, so I agree: N#145193

The entry to the catalogue is pending.

According to Krauze City of Brunswick had Peter Schrader (or Schröder) as mintmaster 1599-1600,1606-1609. Groschen KM entries start from 1606 in 6th edition (2014). Mintmaster mark not listed.

1620-1648 mintmaster was Paul Becker with same mint mark as later Hans Becker.

Z is easier way to write 2. Present not in German coins too.

Found an identical piece but from 1600

 7. Prägungen nach der niedersächs. Kreismünzordnung von 1572 :   Jesse 72-90

https://www.coingallery.de/stadt/b/braunsch.htm#a7

City of Brunswick produced Groschen coins since at least 1499

 

Thank you, tokul and apuking!

In the comments I added the information about the mintmaster, as well as the images below with the 1600 coin as well as a 1599 veriety with a larger lion two coins below the 1600 coin on Coingalery:

I just ordered the Jesse book which I was still missing

List of authorized image sources is in  https://en.numista.com/info.php#picture_source_list_info

If possible do not put third party website images or screenshots in Numista catalogue. Copyright laws apply automatically without any copyright notices in the West.

Those two images are actually from Künker and we have approval from Fritz Rudolf Künker

I just improved the two images, by using the screen print for just the text and by copying the images from the website directly and doubling them in size.
So as I understand it it is fine to use them.

Coingallery has approval from Künker to use their images but these images are actually from Künker so we should mark them as being from Künker

then yes should be no problem to use.

Side comment:  according to our guidelines, we should have these coins titled “1/24 thaler” since that is what is written on the coin.

N#353628 - 24

N#145197 - 12

N#145196 - 6

Full, half and quarter thalers list groschen values. There is no name written on coin and groschen predates thaler. It is probably referee choice on how to keep pages in their category consistent.

After taking closer look at 24 or 1/24 on the coin, the little vertical line section above ‘Z4’ or ‘24’ is not a 1 but rather it is part of the cross above.

On Coingalery the two characters in the center of the 1/24 thaler coin on the 1599 and 1600 are noted as ‘Z4’ and not ‘24’.
It looks like a ‘2’ could be written as either ‘2’ or ‘Z’ in medieval times: https://www.medievalists.net/2016/01/why-learning-numbers-was-so-hard-in-medieval-europe/

As the coin is known both as 1 groschen as well as 1/24 thaler, so I chose the title ‘1 Groschen / 1/24 Thaler - Rudolph II’, but maybe ‘1/24 Thaler (1 Groschen) - Rudolph II’ is better. Most of the Brunswic City 1/24 thaler coins currently are listed as ‘1 Groschen’ (sometimes combined with the name of the emperor), while some are listed as 1/24 thaler.
 

E. Timmermans

When I look for 1/24 Thaler on Numista, I only get 12 results. 

 

I'm not sure how you looked, but Numista search for fractions has been broken since at least 2023.

A general search for 1/24 only finds a fraction of the appropriate items

E. Timmermans

As the coin is known both as 1 groschen as well as 1/24 thaler, so I chose the title ‘1 Groschen / 1/24 Thaler - Rudolph II’, but maybe ‘1/24 Thaler (1 Groschen) - Rudolph II’ is better. Most of the Brunswic City 1/24 thaler coins currently are listed as ‘1 Groschen’ (sometimes combined with the name of the emperor), while some are listed as 1/24 thaler.
 

When I added emperor name on 1606 1 groschen coin, it got corrected to short name. Your page was registered before mine and those extra images in comments might be causing some delays in approvals.

tokul

N#353628 - 24

N#145197 - 12

N#145196 - 6

 

Full, half and quarter thalers list groschen values. There is no name written on coin and groschen predates thaler. It is probably referee choice on how to keep pages in their category consistent.

The Guidelines are explicit on this: 

The face value should always be present in the title. It is expressed as a numeral followed by the unit or subunit that appear on the coin (for example, if the coin shows 56 Kreuzers and even if it is worth 1 Gulden, your must not write “1 Gulden” as face value).

In those examples, it is clear that what is written on the coin (24, 12, 6) has groschen implied, while other cases (1/24, 1/48, 1/96 etc.) have thaler implied.  

 We strive for consistency, but are not perfect (including me in areas where I am a referee🙂).

@ bjherbison: I meant a personal observation, that the ‘1’ or bottom of the cross is fully connected to both the circle above it and the partial circle below it, also it perfectly allignes with the cross above. The 24 stands by itself, not connected to the circle or half circle. For this reason I consider the ‘1’ to be part of the cross.


@ tokul: Your comment inspired me to remove the name of the emperor in the name.
I was requested to seperate the two 1599 coins. As they have a different shield design, according to the referee, they should be considered different types. I'm not sure wether to agree, as in those days design differences were very common, meaning one would end up with lots of types with relatively small design changes for hand made roughly pre 1800 coins.
To other referees reading this: please share your opinion and the numista policy on this.

@ tokul  and tdziemia:
When it comes to short naming: now the list of Brunswic groschen coins still mostly has Groschen as name and some 1/24 Thaler.
For consistency they all should be named 1/24 Thaler due to munista policy, yet as the coins are known as groschen as well I think the name ‘1/24 Thaler (Groschen)’ should be used for all 1/24 Thaler = 1 Groschen coins, provided there is a 24 on the coin.
Referees who read this, please comment on what the name should be.