1859-1860 Vittorio Emanuele II Elected king Issues- Where do they belong? -long post-

First let me give you a little bit of backdrop: In 1859 Victor Emmanuel II king of Sardinia began the quest of Italian unification with the help of a famous general Garibaldi. This led to the formation of a number of temporary states that minted and disappeared, this leads to some confusion in the Numista catalog that should be rectified.

Pre 1859 situation:
Unitarian movements had existed in Italy since the beginning of the century, and many beautiful coins were issued during the short lived days of the independent republics of 1848 but nothing had yet proved successful. Of the greater states that made up the country up to 1858, Italy was divided in the north between Piedmont, ruled by VEII and the austro-hungarian empire. Central Italy was divided between the grand-duchy of Tuscany and the Papal States. The south was ruled by the bourbon kingdoms of Naples and of the "Two Sicilies".

1859- Revolutionary movements:
By 1859 the balance of power in Europe had been leaning strongly towards Austria-Hungary. To "rectify" the situation, France needed an ally. A unified Italy under house of Savoy rule seemed the perfect choice. And so, when Victor Emmanuel II came to Napoleon III of France to discuss possible plans of unification, it seemed the perfect fix and the french were happy to devolve military help. However malcontent was also brewing further south, southern Italy was "in flames" and Tuscany and it's neighbour Emilia-Romagna (part of the papal states) were barrels of powder waiting for a spark. It came when after declaring war on A-H, Victor Emmanuel sent troops to liberate these two regions. In a matter of days popular revolts had ousted the grand duke and his family, installed a temporary government, and formed an army to fight alongside VE against the "huns". Although in a less spectacular manner E-R also separated from the papal states and joined in on "the fun" days later.

1859- The temporary Governments:
Although for the first few weeks Tuscany and Emilia both had their own separate "popular governments" before long they both became part of a " partially unified Italy" as, VEII, reluctant to seize control without a popular demand, mandated a referendum of annexation to the kingdom of Sardinia, in which both regions voted "yes" with a crushing 95%+ majority.

1859-1860- The coins:
Soon after annexation, the need for coins became urgent in Tuscany and E-R. The local mints Of Firenze (Tuscany) and Bologna (E-R) were not well equipped to deal with the sudden demand. Copper coins were minted to Sardinian standards (which were identical to the later LMU standards) using old 1826 Sardinian dies in 1, 3 and 5 Centesimi denominations in Florence to circulate in both regions while a large order was placed for new "Elected King" 1,2,5 centesimi coins to the Birmingham mint (although these coins were minted with the lettering "provisory government of tuscany" they circulated and were made for both regions). 50 cent, 1 lira, and 2 lire coins were minted in silver in both Bologna and Firenze, although slightly different in design details, weight and diameter were standard along with main design pieces (savoy shield, bust of VEII) (Bologna also issued a 5 lire coin in silver along with 10 and 20 lire gold coins) as these coins were meant to circulate in both regions. These coins became the base of the new currency of the kingdom of Italy and circulated freely alongside later Italian and earlier Sardinian issues until the 1880's because of their close resemblance.

So what is the problem?
We like Krause, but sometimes it makes life hell. Why you ask? Because Krause screws this up badly.
It lists the coins as:

Second provisional government of tuscany :

1 cent (birmingham),
2 cents (birmingham),
5 cents (birmingham)
(krause doesn't list the 50 cent, 1 lira and 2 lire coins minted in florence here, oh no, it would be too logical)

Emilia Government:

1 cent (birmingham),
1 cent (1826),
2 cents (birmingham),
3 cents (1826),
5 cents (birmingham),
5 cents (1826),
50 cents (Florence)
50 cents (Bologna)
1 Lira (Florence)
1 Lira (Bologna)
2 Lire (Florence)
2 Lire (Bologna)
5 Lire (Bologna)
10 Lire (Bologna)
20 Lire (Bologna)


Result:

Very bad. Not only are the birmingham coins twice in the catalogue, but some of those that should be in the Tuscany section don't appear there.

So how have we dealt with it?
Numista has the coins split up like this for the moment :

Tuscany Italian states - Tuscany - Lira (1601-1859)

1 cent (birmingham)
2 cent (birmingham)
5 cent (birmingham)

Italian states - Emilia - Lira (1826-1861)

1 cent (1826)
3 cent (1826
5 cent (1826)
50 cent (Florence)
50 cent (Bologna)
1 Lira (Florence)
1 Lira (Bologna)
2 Lire (Florence)
2 Lire (Bologna)
5 Lire (Bologna)
10 Lire (Bologna)
20 Lire (Bologna) (I need to ask @nthn to change the pic, the one we have is for the K of Sardinia coin)

Result:

now that i write this i realize we copied Krause exactly dumping the only right part which was the coppers were made for both regions... Or Not. We have two other mistakes that need to be fixed. First If we are to have a state of Emilia minting coins (which were minted after it fell under the rule of VEII) it definitely didn't start in 1826. Secondly. Look here, these are two sections of "Italian states" we have for Tuscany:

Italian states - Tuscany - Lira (1601-1859)
Italian states - Tuscany - Fiorino (1826-1859)

Note that we have a weird thing with a florin and a lira circulating at the same time. Why is it they had two currencies at the same time? Because it never happened. In 1826 Tuscany started minting and only minted the florin. Extending the lira to 1859 is something stupid someone did. The "new lira", was not minted with the old lira standards, it was minted by a new government, after 23 years of inexistence.

So what are our options?

#1 Minimum work- least right- worse looks

Change the date of the Emilian lira to 1859 only, and move the Florence silver issues to a new "Tuscan second lira 1859-1860"

Con's: The copper issues were made for both regions and they would only exist in one because we can't have double articles.

#2 What i would like- more right- better looks

This is the solution taken by Italian coin catalogs like the "gigante": Instead of separating the coin into two issues by two governments, the Bologna, Florence and Birmingham issues are grouped together in a single currency. Remember! these coins were made to circulate in each other's territory! more like two mints of a single currency than two different ones! We can name the new currency something like "Provisional Governments of Tuscany and Emilia-Romagna- Lira" and end our difficulties there!

Con's: Officially no such unified government existed, they were first under popular governments then under that of Sardinia and finally In a new Kingdom of Italy, but by making "governments" plural i feel like the difficulty is circumvented.

This post was written to solicit a response and try to come to an understanding on how to organise these issues, any suggestions are strongly welcomed, and even if you don't have a suggestion tell me which of the options you prefer,


Loruca

Nobody has their 2 cents to throw in? It would be nice to know where the community would like to see these coins!
Loruca

That is pretty beyond my knowledge, I guess Nathan will have to step in.

Cita: "Jarcek"​That is pretty beyond my knowledge, I guess Nathan will have to step in.

​Ah. well see... This was posted because Nathan wanted input from others... We've already had the discussion.
Loruca

Ok, I will actually try to read the whole thing.

Second solution. It really does not matter that none such unified government existed. (Look at siege coins, they have their own sections and there have been no governments at all..)

Try to imagine that there is hidden prefix to each respective currency, and that it actually reads: Coinage of "Provisional Governments of Tuscany and Emilia-Romagna- Lira". That sounds waaaay better. Both provisional governments existed, and this is their common coinage.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Provinces_of_Central_Italy?wprov=sfla1

Good suggestion Loruca. A few weeks ago I did not know much about Italian history but now that I' m diving more into the subject I offer to help out here

Wikipedia refers to these provisional governments as the United Provinces of Central Italy. The coins basically belong to that entity. I therefore agree with Loruca's proposal.

Italy has an enormous numismatic history and also a long tradition of cataloguing. I'd rather follow the locals than Krause here.

Would anyone object to moving these coins into a single section named 'United Provinces of Central Italy - Lira (1859-1861)'?

Cita: "jokinen"​Would anyone object to moving these coins into a single section named 'United Provinces of Central Italy - Lira (1859-1861)'?

​Love it!
Loruca

I agree with jokinen, and we will be working to make this happen.

And it's done. I added comments to the coins so that they are still searchable under 'Emilia' or 'Tuscany'.

Anything else you would like to change Loruca?

Cita: "jokinen"​And it's done. I added comments to the coins so that they are still searchable under 'Emilia' or 'Tuscany'.
​
​Anything else you would like to change Loruca?

​Why then, what a leading question!

I'll be sure to find something, until then a million thanks!
Loruca