this coins following the KM catalog and other web sites, such as Catawiki, is considered to be belonging to the Azores autonomous administration and not to PORTUGAL
So I think that it should be moved
Kind egards
Gianna
Then the 1981 Madeira Regional Autonomy coins would also be considered Portuguese. Is it a fact or an opinion that the Madeira & Azores autonomy coins belong with Portugal.
There are a lot of countries that have their coins minted by other countries.
I did a quick check and it seems that there are others besides Krause and Catawiki that list these coins under the Azores. PCGS, NGC, Colnect and World Coin Gallery also list the autonomy coins as Azores.
The Azorean Real circulated until 1931. Since then only Portuguese mainland money has been used on the Azores and Madeira. Check also the Portuguese version of this wiki.
This 100 Escudo coin was just a nice gimmick to boost demand but it's just part of a commemorative series from Portugal.
Yeah, I understand, just another money grabbing attempt. My point was that it seems everyone else besides some of the Numista members sees it differently. Personally I decide for myself where a coin should be listed.
This subject was discussed here so many times, but always due the krause mistake (actualy, krause has copied this mistake from another portuguese catalogue). Azores and Madeira cannot issue coin. Those coins are not for exclusive use in Azores and there's no evidence for such thing in the law that authorizes the minting of those coins. This coins had legal tender in all Portugal territory, like all escudos or euro coins.
And yet...and yet...the coins very clearly say, on both sides no less, Republica Portuguesa Azores, or Republica Portuguesa R.A.M. (Regional Autonamy Madeira) On both sides. No other coin of Portugal has that treatment. And no colonial coin of Portugal has that treatment on both sides.
They do not follow the pattern of coins of Portugal. They don't. And they do not follow the patterns of a colonial issue.
They follow issues of an autonomous nature. I think they should be treated as such.
Library Media Specialist, columnist, collector, and gardener...
All the law decrees that allows mint those coins are clear and put this coins as commemorative of the regional autonomy. Citing the law: "Justifica-se, pois, que essa autonomia regional seja assinalada por uma emissão de moeda comemorativa" (It is therefore justified that this regional autonomy is signaled by a commemorative coin issuance). This coins just commemorates the regional autonomy of Madeira and Azores.
Please pardon my lack of Portuguese... but does it commemorate the autonomy, or is it a commemorative issue of the autonomous government of Azores and Madeira. Because as I have noted, the issuing authority on the issuing authority side of these coins says The Republic of Portugal Azores, and the Republic of Portugal Autonomous Region of Madeira.
The coins at the worst indicate issuance by two government authorities. And just to confuse us further, on both sides of the coin.
Similar issues of multi governance issues are the 1970 $4 issues of the Caribbean Bank Developement. St. Kitts & Nevis & Anguilla...etc...
Library Media Specialist, columnist, collector, and gardener...
Cita: "Oklahoman"Please pardon my lack of Portuguese... but does it commemorate the autonomy, or is it a commemorative issue of the autonomous government of Azores and Madeira. Because as I have noted, the issuing authority on the issuing authority side of these coins says The Republic of Portugal Azores, and the Republic of Portugal Autonomous Region of Madeira.
The coins at the worst indicate issuance by two government authorities. And just to confuse us further, on both sides of the coin.
Similar issues of multi governance issues are the 1970 $4 issues of the Caribbean Bank Developement. St. Kitts & Nevis & Anguilla...etc...
it seems based on the way the language is written there that the autonomy status is being commemorated by the coin... not a coin issued by the Azores or Madeira as a commemorative. In this way it would appear to be more similar to a us territory quarter than a coin belonging to its own country.
I see your point. But a difference with the US Territorial quarters is the fact that the commemorative side is the only side with the territory info. The Guam quarter isnt issued by the USA and Guam on the national side.
On these coins of Portugal/Azores/Madeira, they commemorate Azores and Madeira on one side, and then have the name Azores and Madeira appear on the national side as well.
i really enjoyed seeing the law links. And it makes sense that Portuguese law covering their colonies would be within Portuguese law. I imagine it was similar when the British Royal Mint and the British Government handled colonial affairs before devolving.
Clearly at this time Portugal has not or had not devolved...does that make it any less coinage of Azores and Madeira?
It is clear on one side of the coin that it is a commemorative of autonomy. But the other side that says for example, Republica Portuguesa Azores, could just as easily be translated as "The Portuguese Republic of the Azores."
I think this is a very interesting thread.
Library Media Specialist, columnist, collector, and gardener...
A few years ago I deeply studied this subject and the conclusions are more or less what I've said in the previous posts. In addition , I've consulted lot of portuguese numismats and all they said the same.
The confusion around the catalogues about this coins is a understanding problem reading the decrees from this coins. It is related with the fact of the portuguese government gave the collected cash resulting from the sale of this coins by the Portuguese Bank, to this regions. But it was just as courtesy of anniversary in commemoration of the regional autonomy!
To receive this "gift cash" from the sales (just from the "proof" and "sets" ones!), the regional law was forced to transcribe the Portuguese decrees. Then some catalogues seeing this decrees in Azores's law, wrongly thought that this coins was issued by Azores or Madeira.
There's no legal evidence supporting the idea of Azores or Madeira can issue coin, and there's no evidence that this coins was issued in different circumstances from all other escudo coins. All decrees don't mentions Açores or Madeira as issuing authorities. All mentions the coins just as commemoratives of the regional administration.
If someone have interest in this subject, I can gave all the documents that I've collected about it. But it is all in portuguese. And portuguese is not a easy language.
