There are coins that have languages we don't understand, like Islam, Chinese and Hebrew. It will be very hard, especially for Islam if you don't know how letters change in the writing, for us to identify it. Although there might be a face value, some older ones don't. Adding a language specifically for those coins may help?
But the "those" must be defined clearly. Maybe Islam, Hebrew and [insert language here] coins before [year]?
An additional suggestion: it would be useful to specify writing system(s) used on coin. For example, English and Tagalog use Latin script, Russian and Ukrainian use Cyrillic script, Arabic and Persian use Arabic script etc.
It might be a good idea to spring languages up. But it will look jammed however translation and learning languages is good, for example, I am learning Pashto.
That is far from a comprehensive list--just ones related to my countries, meaning many standard modern ones are not included (anything within the Special Keyboard would also apply here). And a 'Search by script' feature could also be a solution to that Braille as a tag thread.
In relation to my countries (what my list is based on), it is Hanzi.
There would definitely have to be some guidelines on how to add scripts. As far as I am aware, Hanzi, Kanji, and Hanja are all technically the same scripts, so I imagine we would have to connect them somehow, if we even add them separately at all. If they are separate, it could be that, if you search Kanji, everything under Hanzi, Kanji, and Hanja all show up. Or we could find a more general name to call them all by.
Looking at the Wiki page for a list of writing systems, they have a group called 'Chinese characters', then sub-divide that group into everything you mentioned: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_writing_systems
Rather than adding all separately and connecting them, it might instead work better to go with parent names. I forgot about Etruscan on my above list, but that could be grouped into Old Italics (which covers Oscan, Umbrian, and Raetic--all being places with coins). Using the grouped scripts would also mean changing Chorasmian to Aramaic, and... I think those would be the only modifications to my above list (in relation to my countries, again).
That was my point it's not that good to use regional names even if it's the parental script (there are differences in those regional variants but in general like with Latin they are the same) the different styles I think are far more important in this regard witch includes my arch-nemeses cursive and seal :shudder:
Orkhon: I added that one as Old Turkic (that seems more common). I only know of this language on Sogdian coins (used as runes); however, it does appear on coins, so I added it regardless. I also changed Uyghur to Old Uyghur because that also seems more official.
Mongolian (traditional): it looks like this is the same as Manchu--or at least, Manchu uses the same characters as Mongolian. I changed Manchu to Mongolian.
Mongolian (folded): are there actually coins that use this? If there are, it definitely looks like something that should be added; however, I have not been able to find any...
Punic: I did not add this one. According to Wiki, while there was a Punic language, their writing system was Pheonician (which is already on the list). Please correct me if I am wrong though.
And I added the other forms of Latin, as well as Paleo-Hebrew.
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In the composition field, there are general options to search for precious metals, non-precious metals, bimetallics, etcetera. Similarly, what may also be interesting is if there were options to search by numbers of scripts. One and Two scripts seems fairly common. Three scripts are not too difficult to find, and I know of one type with Five scripts. I could not find a coin that used four scripts, but I imagine they are out there, so I added that too.
Cita: "Sulfur"Punic: I did not add this one. According to Wiki, while there was a Punic language, their writing system was Pheonician (which is already on the list). Please correct me if I am wrong though.
Sorry I must have missed the Phoenician, but Punic is definitely a different script and present on coins alongside the Phoenician scripts. Punic is based on the older Phoenician, but the characters are quite different: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punic_language#Phonology
Marked as "neo-punic" in this table. I've also encountered "Latino-punic". Numismatic references just call it "punic". Reading a bit on Wikipedia, "Neo-punic" might be the most accurate term.
Cita: "Xavier"Someone even made a transcription of the Phoenician characters on this coin
That would be me ! Unfortunately, the lack of Unicode characters made it rather hard. For all characters except the last one, I used Phoenician, as they look the same or very similar, and would have the same transliteration. For the last character, I had to use a letter of the Ge'ez script, which would be effectively the same (transliterated as "t", and looks similar). I hope one day they'll be added to Unicode.
"Be kind, rewind."
Numista referee for banknotes from Greece, Crete & the Ionian Islands.
Cita: "Sulfur"Mongolian (traditional): it looks like this is the same as Manchu--or at least, Manchu uses the same characters as Mongolian. I changed Manchu to Mongolian.
Manchu and Mongol bitchig (Mongolian script) are similar scripts, but there are letters that only exists in either languages, so Manchu/Mongol maybe could could be updated to include both languages' letter?
Cita: "Sulfur"Mongolian (folded): are there actually coins that use this? If there are, it definitely looks like something that should be added; however, I have not been able to find any...
I wouldn't be suprised if coins has it, but at least all modern banknotes since 1993 has it:
Cita: "Sulfur"Orkhon: I added that one as Old Turkic (that seems more common). I only know of this language on Sogdian coins (used as runes); however, it does appear on coins, so I added it regardless. I also changed Uyghur to Old Uyghur because that also seems more official.
Regarding Mongolian / Manchu: I see this as being similar to Cyrillic, which has a few local varieties. However, I cannot find one general term to group Mongolian / Manchu together, so I will combine their names below.
Mongolian (folded): Like composition and shape, the scripts will probably have to be separate for coins and banknotes. In regards to banknotes, the list will likely be removing ones rather than adding new ones (with a few exceptions). I will attempt a banknote list as well, posted below.
For the number of scripts for banknotes, I imagine these can get fairly high seeing as how much space banknotes have. On Indian notes, some have 17 languages encompassing 11 scripts (Arabic, Bengali, English, Devanagari, Gurjarati, Gurmukhi, Kannada, Malayalam, Odia, Tamil, and Telugu). I am sure there are more numbers between 4 and 11, but... we should probably find those first before adding them.
I like the idea of including the information, but should it be in the Obverse/Reverse/Edge description near the Lettering instead of being in the blue box?
I'm looking at how to implement this idea. Here are some thoughts and questions:
The original language was about the language, then it changed to scripts. If we want to describe the coins as precisely as possible, should we rather indicate both? Or should we start with the scripts only, which is probably simpler?
Should we register the language(s) or script(s) only once per coin, or indicate it for the obverse, the reverse and the edge? Here again, it's probably a trade-off between simplicity and precision of the description.
What defines a script? The list from Sulfur (which is great!) indicates the various types of Chinese calligraphy. This is indeed a usual part of the description of Chinese cash coins. Should we apply the same level of description for the other scripts? For example, Latin also has Blackletter, Carolingian and Gaelic, but should we add upper-case, lower-case, cursive, etc.? Also, some letters are specific to some countries. Another example: some Greek letters do not exist anymore: should we differentiate ancient Greek from modern Greek?
If we start with the scripts only (not the language) and that we agree it's not needed to describe the variants of calligraphy, perhaps the identification of the script could be done automatically, without the need to specify it manually for each coin. For a computer, it's easy to tell that this coin has Chinese characters and 'Phags-pa characters.
Have a nice Sunday and health.
The connection of the language "Cirilika" with Mongolian was mentioned here.
Our history may be wrong and somewhere they still teach national history ( after his political point of view )
Font "Cyrillic" -is taken from the older language base. Its creator, when assigned the task of creating a language for the Central European Empire of the ancient Slavs :was to draw an idea from the tribes in the "CHazar" Empire on the Black Sea .
Michael III, ruler of Byzantium, granted the request of the Princes of the "Great Moravian Empire"
The language is ,,Glagolitic, ,- we have him here for the numist on the coin, however, it is an unknown country and in fact we do not know everything. Glagolitic script on the coin.
Cita: "Xavier"Hello,
I'm looking at how to implement this idea. Here are some thoughts and questions:
The original language was about the language, then it changed to scripts. If we want to describe the coins as precisely as possible, should we rather indicate both? Or should we start with the scripts only, which is probably simpler?
Should we register the language(s) or script(s) only once per coin, or indicate it for the obverse, the reverse and the edge? Here again, it's probably a trade-off between simplicity and precision of the description.
What defines a script? The list from Sulfur (which is great!) indicates the various types of Chinese calligraphy. This is indeed a usual part of the description of Chinese cash coins. Should we apply the same level of description for the other scripts? For example, Latin also has Blackletter, Carolingian and Gaelic, but should we add upper-case, lower-case, cursive, etc.? Also, some letters are specific to some countries. Another example: some Greek letters do not exist anymore: should we differentiate ancient Greek from modern Greek?
If we start with the scripts only (not the language) and that we agree it's not needed to describe the variants of calligraphy, perhaps the identification of the script could be done automatically, without the need to specify it manually for each coin. For a computer, it's easy to tell that this coin has Chinese characters and 'Phags-pa characters.
Thank you for thinking about this issue.
Responding to your points:
1) Adding either language or scripts would be a nice feature.
3&4) There could be a hierarchical list with Chinese listed and running, grass, etc under it. The automatic tool (and users who don't know the differences) could just choose Chinese (or "Chinese (unspecified)" and not one of the sub-types.
Also:
A) If the script is identified (automatically or manually) it would be nice in the future to use that information and provide a button to pop-up a keyboard with one of the specified scripts for entering text on the page.
1) A "script tutorial" link (on the edit page and other places) to teach editors how to select scripts.
2) When an item page gives the name of a script (or when the script is selected while editing) show a sample of the script to the right. A visual representation of the choice, similar to the "↑↑" to explain the orientation or the flag after a country name.
If we have a somehow hyperlinked Numisdoc with comprehensive script samples I don't think it will be necessary to specify the language/scripts for obverse and reverse.
A solution like in the first post could suffice. Language(s): Chinese, English Script(s): Chinese characters, Latin
Otherwise it could be selected by ob-/reverse:
Lettering (Chinese; Chinese characters): [I wouldn't like the doubling of Chinese in this case]
亂數假文產生器
Translation:
....
1. I think we should stick to just the script (for now, at least). If we implement a feature where we can add a script to the individual pages, I imagine it would not be too difficult to implement something where we could "Search by script", which would be very helpful for coin identification.
However, I think a "Search by language" would not be as helpful as a "Search by script". Just by looking at the coin, you could tell if it is written in the Devanagari script, for example--but you would not necessarily be able to tell if it is Nepalese, Marathi, or Konkani (assuming you are not a native speaker, at least).
So while the Language might be interesting to include, I see it as only interesting. The Script is both interesting and helpful.
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2. I think simplicity would be better here--for coins with multiple scripts, we could always mention the scripts in the Description fields, and that would make an explicit mention of what-is-where in the Script field irrelevant.
With that being said, I imagine mentioning the specific location of the script would only really helpful for coins with multiple scripts; however, if there are too many scripts, such a feature would also not help much. Indian banknotes have 11 scripts on one side, so even with mentioning what scripts are on what side, it will not help much when so many scripts are used.
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3. I think including various calligraphies would be nice; however, only if there is also an option to see everything all together. For example: an option to see specifically Latin (Blackletter) would be nice, but it would also be nice to see a general "Latin", including Blackletter, Carolingian, and everything modern.
I think there would be no need to differenciate upper-case/lower-case, but cursive would be interesing (but it would also have to appear in the general "Latin" grouping, whenever that group is selected).
4. I think this is definitely a job for the Numista robot--using whatever is written in the Lettering fields, thousands of coins can have their scripts automatcially assigned. However, I think this has to be done with caution, and there must be a way to manually imput the scripts for each coin.
Some coins have nothing written in Lettering field, but the script can still be identified, so those will have to be manual additions.
And some places have scripts that we phyiscally cannot type, so automatically imputing the languages would result in some errors. For example, this coin was mentioned earlier in the thread: https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces268109.html
The script on the coin is Punic, and so the characters were replicated using Phoenician and Ge'ez characters. Obviously, an automatic generation would not be accurate. Same thing goes for Sogdian, which would all be generated as Latin.
With that being said, I anticipate no problem automatizing most countries. All modern ones should work well, and the older ones... we would just have to be cautious.
Cita: "MIMAEL"Our history may be wrong and somewhere they still teach national history ( after his political point of view )
Font "Cyrillic" -is taken from the older language base. Its creator, when assigned the task of creating a language for the Central European Empire of the ancient Slavs :was to draw an idea from the tribes in the "CHazar" Empire on the Black Sea .
Michael III, ruler of Byzantium, granted the request of the Princes of the "Great Moravian Empire"
The language is ,,Glagolitic, ,- we have him here for the numist on the coin, however, it is an unknown country and in fact we do not know everything.
Glagolitic script on the coin.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glagolitic_script
Very nice! I also added Glagolitic to my list.
Even if the language was not used on contemporary coins, there is still a chance it has been used on modern commemoratives, like this one from Bulgaria: https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces12373.html
About the Cyrillic script, I don't believe any country currently uses the original version. Rather, there is a number of Cyrillic-based alphabets which have been tweaked to better fit various languages. Moreover, even within a single country, there may have been changes made to their alphabets over time. For example, the Russian alphabet was changed in 1917, when a bunch of letters got dropped.
I reused the list of scripts from Sulfur posted on 16-Feb-2021 and last edited on 18-Jun-2021, with some changes:
There is a common list for coins and banknotes.
I added Cyrillic cursive, in the same manner as there was already Latin cursive.
I added Chinese simplified.
I didn't add Turkic runes, as I could not find the difference with Old Turkic. If there is a difference, please provide some references so that I can look for the translation into French and add an example.
I actually also have some doubts about the 2 following scripts, but I added them anyway:
Hebrew (Paleo-Hebrew): it seems to be the same script as Phoenician. According to Wikipedia, "There is no difference in "Paleo-Hebrew" vs. "Phoenician" letter shapes. The names are applied depending on the language of the inscription [...]"
Arabic (Pseudo-Kufic): If I understand well, pseudo-Kufic inscriptions are imitations of Arabic in Kufic script. Perhaps we should just add Kufic script, and not make a distinction whether it was used in Arabic countries or European countries.
Cita: "Xavier"I reused the list of scripts from Sulfur posted on 16-Feb-2021 and last edited on 18-Jun-2021, with some changes:
There is a common list for coins and banknotes.
I added Cyrillic cursive, in the same manner as there was already Latin cursive.
I added Chinese simplified.
I didn't add Turkic runes, as I could not find the difference with Old Turkic. If there is a difference, please provide some references so that I can look for the translation into French and add an example.
That's what I thought. I, personally, don't see the need to distinguish if the script is cursive or not. "Cursive cyrillic" is like "handwritten", which seems too specific. Latin cursive srems also a little too specific. Do we then also need bold and underlined? I know there are coins with people's sigmatures, but a cursive Latin isn't a different script from the "normal" Latin.
If Chinese simplified is in the list, shouldn't Chibese traditional also be there? I tried out the scripts on this coin and was a little confused which Chinese to pick, since I couldn't find traditional. Traditional Chinese characters are also used on modern Japanese and Taiwanese coins, and banknotes of course.
It is correct that Old Turkic and Turkic runes is the same script. It is also known as Orkhon script.
Cita: "ngdawa"
That's what I thought. I, personally, don't see the need to distinguish if the script is cursive or not. "Cursive cyrillic" is like "handwritten", which seems too specific. Latin cursive srems also a little too specific. Do we then also need bold and underlined? I know there are coins with people's sigmatures, but a cursive Latin isn't a different script from the "normal" Latin..
Cursive Chinese is already added as: Chinese (Grass script)
"Grass script" is actually a too literal translation for "cursive script", but the term seems widely used in numismatics. I'm not sure whether we should stick to the "grass script" to facilitate cross-understanding with other numismatic sources, or whether we should use the current term "cursive script".
All the Chinese options except the simplified Chinese should be understood as traditional Chinese. I just changed the names to make it clear.
Your banknote seems to have Chinese (traditional, regular script), Chinese (traditional, cursive script), Chinese (traditional, seal script) and Katakana scripts.
If in doubt, you can still choose the generic option "Chinese", which is still better than nothing.
I also added Katakana to the list. Are Hiragana characters present on coins or banknotes?
Hiragana is definitely used on coins. Take this: https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces123705.html
が ん ば ろ う 日 本 (ga n ba ro u ni hon)-- the first 5 characters are Hiragana and the last 2 are Kanji (Chinese)
In general, Katakana characters are used for foreign words, proper names, and such. Hiragana characters are usually combined with Chinese characters as their primary use is for Japanese grammar, or if something needs to be spelled out phonetically for people who might not know Chinese characters (Kanji), like in comics or on children's books/tv programs.
Cita: "Houseofham"Hiragana is definitely used on coins. Take this: https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces123705.html
が ん ば ろ う日 本 (ga n ba ro u hi hon)-- the first 5 characters are Hiragana and the last 2 are Kanji (Chinese)
Good find! Although, 日本 is pronounced "Nihon" or "Nippon".
Cita: "Houseofham"Hiragana is definitely used on coins. Take this: https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces123705.html
が ん ば ろ う日 本 (ga n ba ro u hi hon)-- the first 5 characters are Hiragana and the last 2 are Kanji (Chinese)
Good find! Although, 日本 is pronounced "Nihon" or "Nippon".
Something I've noticed:
We have Brahmi in the script list, which is all fine, but we seperately lists languages like: Bengali, Devangari, Gujarati, Gurmukhi, Kannada, Odia, Tamil, Telugu, Tibetan, Sinhala - which all are Brahmic scripts. Somewhere along the line, scripts and languages as gone mixed together. We don't distinguish between Macedonian, Kazakh and Mongolian cyrillic, so why list all these languages seperately - and exclude Hindi?
Bengali, Devenagari, etc. are all distinct scripts, although they all derive from the Brahmi script, used from the 3rd century BCE to the 5th century CE. Bengali: বাংলা বর্ণমালা Devanagari: देवनागरी Gujarati: ગુજરાતી Gurmukhi: ਗੁਰਮੁਖੀ Kannada: ಕನ್ನಡ ಲಿಪಿಕನ್ನಡ ಲಿಪಿ Odia: ଓଡ଼ିଆ Tamil: தமிழ்
etc.
They look more different to me than the variations of Cyrillic (e.g. Macedonian alphabet) or Latin (e.g. Norwegian alphabet), which differ by the addition of some letters or diacritics to handle the specificities of each language.
It's true we are lacking a clear definition of what we list as a script. So far it seem we took into account the various types of calligraphy, but not the language-specific varieties.
While scripts is probably most useful for search, we could add languages in the future.
We could also have some groups of scripts to help for search, if someone is unsure whether the coin has Bengali or Devenagari letters for example.
Cita: "ngdawa"Somewhere along the line, scripts and languages as gone mixed together.
This goes also for "Georgian". Georgian is a langauge spoken natively in the Republic of Georgia. The modern language is written with the Mkhedruli alphabet. But there are also two other Georgian alphabets, namely Asomtavruli and Nuskhuri.
To give an example of these three Georgian alaphabets, I'll list the first five letters of the alphabet: A, B, G, D, E
Asomtavruli: Ⴀ, Ⴁ, Ⴂ, Ⴃ, Ⴄ
Nuskhuri: ⴀ, ⴁ, ⴂ, ⴃ, ⴄ
Mkhedruli: ა, ბ, გ, დ, ე
Cita: "bjherbison"That page should be linked from a help button next to the Script(s) fields, and in the Guidelines when they are updated to include the fields.
Maybe a Numisdoc should be created that lists all alphabets.
(Just seeing this now--only got access to my laptop yesterday.)
This is very nice to see!
A couple comments I have based on the comments so far:
1. Arabic (Pseudo-Kufic) can be changed to Arabic (Kufic script) (or however you would prefer to name it)--you are correct about the pseudo part being unnecessary.
2. It seems you are correct for the Hebrew (Paleo-Hebrew) and Phoenician scripts, so I would suggest either going with one name or naming it something similar to Mongolian / Manchu script (so... Phoenician / Paleo-Hebrew). Either one would work for me.
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3. I think it would look nicer if the scripts got their own section, rather than being added on the end of the Lettering section--specifically for Chinese coins, like this one: https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces20612.html.
The double parenthesis does not look very nice, in my opinion. Plus, it can also look very... chuncky, I guess, when there are many scripts. Here is how I see ngdawa's example, at least:
(Everything is in one line, but because the different scripts take up so much room, the legend itself is separated into two disconnected parts.)
In their own section, it would still be possible to show what script is located on which side. Something like this:
Scripts
- Obverse: Chinese (traditional, regular script), Hangul, Latin
- Reverse: Chinese (traditional, regular script)
It might also be possible to simplify the Script section with some coding. For example, if there is only a script on one side, there would be no need to specify Obverse or Reverse. Or, if the scripts on the obverse equal the scripts on the reverse exactly, there would also be no need to specify Obverse or Reverse (or Edge)--this type of coding would avoid the following, which I imagine would be somewhat common:
Scripts
- Obverse: Latin
- Reverse: Latin
- Edge: Latin
Cita: "Sulfur"The double parenthesis does not look very nice, in my opinion. Plus, it can also look very... chuncky, I guess, when there are many scripts. Here is how I see ngdawa's example, at least:
(Everything is in one line, but because the different scripts take up so much room, the legend itself is separated into two disconnected parts.)
This is something I've thought of as well, and I was very surprised that the Script and Lettering all is in same line. At least seperate these two. I reckon that Lettering should as a title, and the actual lattering come below it, then it wouldn't matter of many scripts there are, like this:
I removed the paleo Hebrew and I suggest we keep only "Phoenician".
I changed a little bit the display to avoid the double parenthesis and the too-long lines, and also to mention we are talking about scripts (just mentioning "Latin" could be confused with the language). I prefer not having an additional section on the page for the scripts.
But to be a little picky, would it be possible to change the displayed order of these sections? I have been trying to get used to the current ordering, but I find it odd that the Script is separating the Lettering and Translation sections. With the Script basically being a description of the lettering, I think Script, Lettering, then Translation might be a better ordering.
This is, of course, a minor thing, so if you do not want to do that, I can learn to live with the current ordering.
Indeed, it makes sense to keep the lettering and the translation next to each other. I'm not fully satisfied with having the scripts before the lettering, but it's better than between the lettering and the translation.
While we could add another field for the unabridged lettering, I think that works fine in the Translation section (otherwise saying: include the unabridged lettering in the first line, then the translation in the second line). While it could work as its own field, I imagine that would just make the Obverse/Reverse sections unecessarily crowded.
(And then, if we do get a separate field for the unabridged lettering, Transliterations could also be considered for yet another field, and it would be even more crowded.)
I reckon it makes more sense to have the Script field after the Lettering field, since it referes back to the lettering. Another way to do it is to add the word in when a script is added, so it says: Lettering in Chinese (traditional, regular script), Hangul, and Latin:
• 大韓 • 隆熙三年 • 오젼 • 5 CHON
Yes, the line might get really long, but to have the scripts presented before the lettering field, where the scripts are, seems a little weird to me.
For my taste the current order is not perfect neither. The script field separates face value and year/gregorian date. In my opinion in most cases those three are the most important fields for the search of coins (and the issuer/country of course). When I'm looking up many coins I just use the tab key for moving from the face value field to the year field and back. But now with the script field in between this doesn't work anymore because the script field is a dropdown field so tab is kind of blocked there.
My proposal would be to put the three fields "face value" "year" "gregorian date" next to each other.
I'm not orange and also in other things I'm not a Donald at all. DonChori like Don Felipe or Doña María, por favor.
Cita: "BCNumismatics"Maltese needs to be added, as it uses an alphabet that contains letters used to represent sounds that are only in the Maltese language.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maltese_alphabet .
Aidan.
This goes for basically all lancuages using the Latin alphabet. Czech, Icelandic, Polish, Turkish, and Guaraní are just a few other.
And this takes me to the reason I revisited this post, which title is "Language of a coin". What we got now is "Scripts of a coin", which is totally different. Shouldn't we just go with languages instead, since Russian, Serbian, N. Macedonian, Bulgarian, Mongol, old Kazakh, old Uzbek, Kyrgyz, Tajik, Belarussian, Ukrainian, and Bosnian coins all have Cyrillic scripts - but totally different ones.
Maybe too few coins/notes having it, but could "Morse Code" be added as a script? Some Canadian coins has it, and if I'm not mistaken two Israely banknotes.
Maybe out of place since the code represent a script when decoded? Just wanted to suggest it, regardless :)
I have a soft spot for origami paper cranes.
Read or watch about "Sadako Sasaki and the Thousand Paper Cranes".
Spread a little peace and happiness wherever you go :)
Hello! As the implementation of the scripts was a success, I wanted to relaunch the idea of adding the language as well. Over the course of contributions, I've noticed that a lot of members either didn't add script or didn't fully understand the distinction between script and language.
