I'm creating a separate topic from the Banknotes suggestion to discuss how a banknote catalogue should be defined on Numista:
Which fields can be in common between coins and banknotes
Which fields should differ between coins and banknotes
How do we define banknote types and varieties
What difference between adding a coin to my collection or a banknote
I prepared a draft analysis, with several open points. Please post your comments directly on the document as much as possible, so I can easily aggregate all your inputs (and ideally sign with your Numista user name).
Cita: "ngdawa"All we need to do is to change some default settings and fill the catalogue.
Coins
Country Korea
Type Common coin
Years 1633-1892
Value 1 Mun (0.001)
Metal Brass
Weight 5.06 g
Diameter 25.5 mm
Shape Round with a square hole
Orientation Medal alignment ↑↑
Demonetized yes
References KM# 220
Obv/Rev
Engraver
Description with keywords
Lettering
Translation of the lettering
Edge
Description with keywords
Lettering
Translation of the lettering
Banknotes
Country Korea
Type Issued banknote
Years 1932
Value 10 Yen (10)
Material Cotton paper
Length 125 mm
Width 70 mm
Shape Rectangular
Demonetized yes
References P-29a
Front/Back
Artist
Description with keywords
Lettering
Translation of the lettering
Watermark
Description with keywords
Lettering
Translation of the lettering
Signatures
Printer
A banknote catalogue would be very specialised - including lists of dates & confirmed serial number prefixes.
Of course, Replacement & Specimen notes would need to be listed with separate catalogue numbers.
Notaphilic products (notes offered for sale above their face value) would need to be indicated separately from those put into circulation at their face value.
Cita: "ngdawa"I see a similar layout as Numista's. Maybe a different colour schemes, but one should know it's a part of Numista. A banknote page could look like something like this:
Ngdawa, thanks, I already took that into account in the above Doc document. I'm just trying to get more detailed.
BCNumismatics, thanks, I'll add collector notes as a separate type. Do you have examples?
What do you mean by replacement & specimen? If it's a banknote with final design but with "specimen" on it, I would list them as separate varieties for the same banknote type. If it's far from the final design, I agree they should be separated separately as essays & trials.
I add here my attempt, hope this helps crystalise some ideas (banknote itself is fantasy).
I would like to see some of these features implemented for coins as well:
- Varieties
- Mint Masters + privy marks (instead of signatures)
- Auction records
Cita: "Xavier"BCNumismatics, thanks, I'll add collector notes as a separate type. Do you have examples?
What do you mean by replacement & specimen?
Collector series, or Collector notes, are often notes meant for collectors more than circulation. E.g. North Korean banknotes commemorating Kim Il Sung's birthday, or the Foundation of the Worker's Party. These could also be special banknotes like the 0 euro banknotes.
Replacements are note that's replacing damaged notes. The new note will have the name serial number as the damaged one, but with a star or prefix letter that indicates it's a replaced banknote. E.g.: The banknote AA 123456789 has been ripped apart and need to be replaced. The the replacement note will then get the serial number AA 123456798 ☆ - a so called "star note". But it could also get the prefix ZA - or with Cyrillic letters it'll a safe bet the prefix will be ЯА. The variations for replacement notes are many, but a star (☆) after/before the serial number, or prefix letter Z are the most common ones.
I thought of this too, I think it's a bit of an old-school thing from the times when catalogs were black and white.
Now that we have full colour photos, this is not so relevant anymore, so this is low priority for me.
It may be good for cases where there is no photo available, and for a search feature when trying to identify a note.
That being said, if this is added, it should go in two separate fields under Obverse and Reverse, because sometimes colours are different. May even do in the generic description field?
Xavier, a Specimen note is usually the same design & colours as for the currency note - but with 'SPECIMEN' or whatever it is in another language where English is not the native language overprinted.
Some collectors detest Specimen notes - but some Specimen notes are extremely sought after, as are Replacement notes.
Cita: "BCNumismatics"Xavier, a Specimen note is usually the same design & colours as for the currency note - but with 'SPECIMEN' or whatever it is in another language where English is not the native language overprinted.
In other words, it's exactly the same as with specimen coins. No need to be separated more than the specimen coins are.
Cita: "stratocaster"I thought of this too, I think it's a bit of an old-school thing from the times when catalogs were black and white.
This is a good point though. But I believe there are some varieties where the colour scheme is different. Tvis might only be relevant for low quality war time notes, like the 1990's Iraqi notes etc.
Terminology is important. Obverse is a coin term. It is not a banknote term. It should be front or face. And color is an important fact and should be described. Especially if we list color trials.
Library Media Specialist, columnist, collector, and gardener...
Cita: "Wikipedia"Obverse and its opposite, reverse, refer to the two flat faces of coins and some other two-sided objects, including paper money, flags, seals, medals, drawings, old master prints and other works of art, and printed fabrics.
Terms also used widely by many national print departments. Let's consider them all idiots because they make banknotes but don't know the terminology.
Cita: "Oklahoman" And color is an important fact and should be described. Especially if we list color trials.
That's right but this shouldn't be achieved by the users entirely. I am thinking about a color quantization algorithm (median cut, K-means, etc) to suggest you the dominant colors of a picture and the user should just choose the best color for a particular banknote. What do you think about?
I'll go with IBNS (INTERNATIONAL Banknote Society) vocabulary over wikipedia or national news services, or Central Banks every time. If we want to be the standard we should have standards. Obverse is not banknote terminology regardless of the great god Wikipedia.
Library Media Specialist, columnist, collector, and gardener...
As far as I can tell, all terms are equally used. I suspect Europe has a preference for Obverse/Reverse. Also in strictly numismatic, academic and technical contexts, Obverse / Reverse are used more. Front and Back seem to be more popular in general purpose articles and publications.
Obverse/Reverse have a big advantage, in that it is perfectly clear and unambiguous what they refer to. In some contexts I found Face to refer to the Obverse Face and the Reverse Face. Front and Back also have other very used meanings. It's true that Reverse can also mean something else (like in reverse engineer), but this is less common.
So I would stick to Obverse / Reverse, but don't think either choice is a mistake.
And here are the terms that some sources use (I list them in the order of popularity as much as possible):
Catalogs: SCWPM (Krause, ex-Pick): Front / Back (but also Front / Reverse) Friedberg US: Obverse / Reverse
Scientific articles: Scholar: Obverse / Reverse dominate results (example). Jstor: Obverse / Reverse (example). Other terms are rarer and seem to occur mainly in non-numismatic contexts more. Patents: Obverse / Reverse are both called faces. i.e. obverse face and reverse face.
@stratocaster good analysis, terms are equally used based on preferences
@Oklahoman just don't go on a slippery slope. Your IBNS god say:
Cita: "IBNS"Various terms are used to refer to the front and back of a banknote, with no terms being universally recognized.
Claiming that obverse/reverse is not the right terminology for banknotes it's just ignorance. You better say that it's your preference and I am totally fine but please stop being ignorant.
Cita: "Andy289"@stratocaster good analysis, terms are equally used based on preferences
@Oklahoman just don't go on a slippery slope. Your IBNS god say:
Cita: "IBNS"Various terms are used to refer to the front and back of a banknote, with no terms being universally recognized.
Claiming that obverse/reverse is not the right terminology for banknotes it's just ignorance. You better say that it's your preference and I am totally fine but please stop being ignorant.
That was a very good item analysis. I realize that I had my preferred terms due to my decades of working with Krause and Pick, and that it had nothing to do with the IBNS, which surprised me!
Library Media Specialist, columnist, collector, and gardener...
Hi, sorry, me again. Is this really the most important question? This could be a reason the whole ptoject falls apart, we can't even agree if the from is obverse or the reverse is the back.
Personally I use front/back for banknotes and obverse/reverse for coins, but I'd rather have banknotes on Numisa labeled obverse/reverse than nothing at all.
So, what did we decide on colours? Do we need it or not?
I think it's really not that necessary, and for new collectors it might be really difficult to tell if there's a pink underprint or not. This can just be mentioned in the Comments section, either with words or pictures showing varieties.
I also think that Collector's series should be separated, like Tokens are seperated in the coin catalogue. Any inputs?
I'm entirely ambivalent about the great face/back vs. obverse/reverse debate. Regarding colours, surely we can put in the section and it can be filled in when it's helpful. Somtimes the primary diference between two notes is a change in colour. Also, scans aren't always that representative of the true colour of a note and some notes fade, so having the option to add the colour can't hurt. A separate section for "collectors' series" would certainly help (largely so I can ignore them).
Former Numista referee for banknotes from Ireland, Northern Ireland, Scotland, Wales and Saint Helena.
True, but it's not really ↑↓ / ↑↑ alignments, and picture will show what kind of alignment it is.
No one will ever ask "my note has a vertical back, is it rare?" lol! So to add additional ←↑/↑→/→↑/↑← alignments will be very confusing. I god confused just making this example, since I didn't know if the arrows should point right or left..or both.
Cita: "ngdawa"So, what did we decide on colours? Do we need it or not?
I think it's really not that necessary, and for new collectors it might be really difficult to tell if there's a pink underprint or not. This can just be mentioned in the Comments section, either with words or pictures showing varieties.
It's quite trivial to implement a dominant color algorithm that would suggest few dominant colors of a banknote so the user will just have to confirm the closest color shade from the list of suggested colors. In this way the users input error will be minimum.
Cita: "Andy289"It's quite trivial to implement a dominant color algorithm that would suggest few dominant colors of a banknote so the user will just have to confirm the closest color shade from the list of suggested colors. In this way the users input error will be minimum.
There are many algorithms that might be used but I propose a simple median cut color quantization. If Xavier decide that color of a banknote is a feature that we need it, I can provide the code for such an algorithm.
In this discussion of colour, please bear in mind that not all notes have a single dominant colour. Many are listed as "multicoloured" in catalogues and many others are listed as having two main colours, such as the Bank of England WWII pound notes, always referred to as "blue-pink":
Cita: "ceh2019"In this discussion of colour, please bear in mind that not all notes have a single dominant colour. Many are listed as "multicoloured" in catalogues and many others are listed as having two main colours, such as the Bank of England WWII pound notes, always referred to as "blue-pink":
http://banknote.ws/COLLECTION/countries/EUR/GBR/GBR0367.htm
An algorithm might sort out the straightforward ones but we'll need to be able to override it for cases such as this.
Maybe have colour options as 'red / orange / yellow ... / multicolour'? Though I have a feeling that loads of coins will be under the multicolour section.
Out of curiosity, what about occupation currency? I would assume it would be the same as for coins, but isn't there more variation of color and paper than normal notes? There is a lot of variations to the Philippine notes Japan issued. The paper varieties can range from white to light brown on the same issue. Personally, I would love to see the option of linking plate numbers to various color combinations. It would make a nice academic venture.
(Sorry about the multiple edits. My cat had kittens, ignored them until she just has one, and is now insanely overprotective of it. Every time it cries, she runs like an idiot, over me, the computer, her uncle who isn't happy about her house etiquette, and anything else.)
Cita: "cassibill"Out of curiosity, what about occupation currency?
I would be interested to know if occupation currency gets grouped under the occupying country, the country being occupied, or becomes a new issuer in its own right.
I've got the full Hong Kong Japanese Occupation Issue set, and I would love to help add them all into the catalog :-)
光復香港 時代革命
五大訴求 缺一不可
Liberate Hong Kong, Revolution of our times
The notes issued by Japan for use in the Japanese administered Philippines is presently listed in the Philippines. So for now I'd list occupation notes within the country occupied. That may change in the future. But might not. Either way we will have the created page.
Library Media Specialist, columnist, collector, and gardener...
Cita: "Oklahoman"The notes issued by Japan for use in the Japanese administered Philippines is presently listed in the Philippines. So for now I'd list occupation notes within the country occupied. That may change in the future. But might not. Either way we will have the created page.
Japanese Occupation notes will have to be listed in a new section for banknotes issued by military & occupation authorities, along with the British Armed Forces notes.
I personally think we should list the notes in the country or region that they were intended to be used in, so Hong Kong Japanese Occupation notes should probably be listed in Hong Kong.
Or, we could list them under a subsection within the country being occupied, much like how the Soviet Union is listed under Russia.
光復香港 時代革命
五大訴求 缺一不可
Liberate Hong Kong, Revolution of our times
