Request of Romanian issuing entities [Risolto]

For the new update we have:

National Bank of Romania
State Bank
Ministry of Finance
Treasury
Institute of External Funding
Red Army Command
General Romanian Bank
Austria-Hungary Bank - Bukovina
Austria-Hungary Bank - Transilvania (Siebenbürgen) and Banat

Can you change the request to "Request about banknote issuing entities" please? Then it's easier to keep track of things
thanks

Hello SpuDy,

This is what I propose, and I want to double check with you:

• Ministerul Finanţelor / Ministry of Finance (1877, 1917, 1948, 1952)
• Banca Națională a României / National Bank of Romania (1880-1948, 1991-date)
• Banca Generală Română / General Romanian Bank (1917)
• Regimentul 10 Vânători / 10th Regiment Hunters (1918)
• Trezoreria Statului / State Treasury (10.06.1919-28.08.1919)
• Institutul de Finanțare Externă (InFinEx) / External Financing Institute (InFinEx) (1941-1944)
• Comandamentul Armatei Roșii / Red Army Command (1944)
• Banca Republicii Populare Române - Banca de Stat / Bank of the People's Republic of Romania- State Bank (1949-1952)
• Banca Națională a Republicii Socialiste Române / National Bank of the Socialist Republic of Romania (1966)

I don't know if it's better to translate the names or not? Pick actually uses mostly the Romanian names.

The only major difference to your list is that I dropped the two Austro-Hungarian Banks. I suppose we will need new local issuers under Romania for these (Transylvania and Bukovina). But I don't think we should add the Austrian banks under Romania: technically we are talking about who issued the "stamp", not the old notes.

The stamps were done by an ordinance of the Ministry of Finance (Ro), at the State Treasury and 10th Regiment. Pick lists them as "Treasury", so I suppose we could go with this, to differentiate them from other Ministry notes. Is there any other issue from the "Treasury" in your list, apart from the stamped Austrian notes?

The 10th Regiment notes are very rare, only 27 October 25 Kronen.

Best

Hi,

I suspect Xavier marked this as "done" accidentally, as I can't find these in the database yet? So I will reopen the ticket.

SpuDy, is the list I made okay?

Regards

It is best to put the names of each issuing entity with BOTH their native names (in Romania's & Moldova's cases, in Romanian) & their names in English.

Of course, in Romania's cases, they should also be indicated as to which ruling Prince or King until 1947 they were issued under, then the 2 Communist Romanian eras, & finally, post-1989 Revolution Romania.

Aidan.

Cita: "stratocaster"​
​The 10th Regiment notes are very rare, only 27 October 25 Kronen.

​Can you show me one?

@SpuDy
State Bank is not a distinct entity that issued notes in Romania. It always come as a title after the issuer. Let's take for example 500 Lei 1952.

The entity that issued that note is Banca Republicii Populare Romane (Bank of the People’s Republic of Romania) which is basically the State Bank but this is not a different entity. Do I missed some notes issued by the State Bank?

Andy, the words 'Banca De Stat' indicates that the Banca Republicii Populare Romane was the only institution that was mandated under the regime of Gheorge Gheorgiu-Dej to issue banknotes for the economy of the Romanian state itself.

The Banca Nationale a Republicii Socialiste Romania replaced the Banca Republicii Populare Romane under the regime of Nicolae Ceaucescu.

Since 1989, the pre-1947 name has been restored;

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Bank_of_Romania .

Aidan.

I know what it means but we are talking about issuing entities and Banca de Stat is not a distinct entity but an authoritative title related to Banca Republicii Populare Romane which is the issuing entity.

Cita: "Andy289"​I know what it means but we are talking about issuing entities and Banca de Stat is not a distinct entity but an authoritative title related to Banca Republicii Populare Romane which is the issuing entity.

​
I know, but Banca de Stat is literally a description of what Banca Republicii Populare Romane was - the only bank in the Communist Romanian state authorised to issue currency at that time.

Aidan.

A description is not an issuing entity. That's my point. We can argue but it's pointless since you throw random articles from wikipedia and making assumptions instead of checking the archive of NBR so we can argue.

Cita: "stratocaster"​Hello SpuDy,
​
​This is what I propose, and I want to double check with you:
​
​• Ministerul Finanţelor / Ministry of Finance (1877, 1917, 1948, 1952)
​• Banca Națională a României / National Bank of Romania (1880-1948, 1991-date)
​• Banca Generală Română / General Romanian Bank (1917)
​• Regimentul 10 Vânători / 10th Regiment Hunters (1918)
​• Trezoreria Statului / State Treasury (10.06.1919-28.08.1919)
​• Institutul de Finanțare Externă (InFinEx) / External Financing Institute (InFinEx) (1941-1944)
​• Comandamentul Armatei Roșii / Red Army Command (1944)
​• Banca Republicii Populare Române - Banca de Stat / Bank of the People's Republic of Romania- State Bank (1949-1952)
​• Banca Națională a Republicii Socialiste Române / National Bank of the Socialist Republic of Romania (1966)
​
​I don't know if it's better to translate the names or not? Pick actually uses mostly the Romanian names.
​
​The only major difference to your list is that I dropped the two Austro-Hungarian Banks. I suppose we will need new local issuers under Romania for these (Transylvania and Bukovina). But I don't think we should add the Austrian banks under Romania: technically we are talking about who issued the "stamp", not the old notes.
​
​The stamps were done by an ordinance of the Ministry of Finance (Ro), at the State Treasury and 10th Regiment. Pick lists them as "Treasury", so I suppose we could go with this, to differentiate them from other Ministry notes. Is there any other issue from the "Treasury" in your list, apart from the stamped Austrian notes?
​
​The 10th Regiment notes are very rare, only 27 October 25 Kronen.
​
​Best
​
​
​
​
​

​i didnt see the answer. I ll check in few hours

Cita: "stratocaster"​Hello SpuDy,
​
​This is what I propose, and I want to double check with you:
​
​• Ministerul Finanţelor / Ministry of Finance (1877, 1917, 1948, 1952)
​• Banca Națională a României / National Bank of Romania (1880-1948, 1991-date)
​• Banca Generală Română / General Romanian Bank (1917)
​• Regimentul 10 Vânători / 10th Regiment Hunters (1918)
​• Trezoreria Statului / State Treasury (10.06.1919-28.08.1919)
​• Institutul de Finanțare Externă (InFinEx) / External Financing Institute (InFinEx) (1941-1944)
​• Comandamentul Armatei Roșii / Red Army Command (1944)
​• Banca Republicii Populare Române - Banca de Stat / Bank of the People's Republic of Romania- State Bank (1949-1952)
​• Banca Națională a Republicii Socialiste Române / National Bank of the Socialist Republic of Romania (1966)
​
​I don't know if it's better to translate the names or not? Pick actually uses mostly the Romanian names.
​
​The only major difference to your list is that I dropped the two Austro-Hungarian Banks. I suppose we will need new local issuers under Romania for these (Transylvania and Bukovina). But I don't think we should add the Austrian banks under Romania: technically we are talking about who issued the "stamp", not the old notes.
​
​The stamps were done by an ordinance of the Ministry of Finance (Ro), at the State Treasury and 10th Regiment. Pick lists them as "Treasury", so I suppose we could go with this, to differentiate them from other Ministry notes. Is there any other issue from the "Treasury" in your list, apart from the stamped Austrian notes?
​
​The 10th Regiment notes are very rare, only 27 October 25 Kronen.
​
​Best
​
​
​
​
​

​So, few more to add.
​• Ministerul Finanţelor / Ministry of Finance (1877, 1917, 1948, 1952) Add years: 1920, 1945, 1947, 1950, but 1877 why in Ministry of Finance? In 1877 "Tesaurul" or "Treasury" printed banknotes.
​• Banca Națională a României / National Bank of Romania (1880-1948, 1991-date) GOOD
​• Banca Generală Română / General Romanian Bank (1917) GOOD
​• Regimentul 10 Vânători / 10th Regiment Hunters (1918) Never heard of that name, but I know what you mean, it should be 1919 tho.
​• Trezoreria Statului / State Treasury (10.06.1919-28.08.1919), year should be 12.06.1877, why 1919?
​• Institutul de Finanțare Externă (InFinEx) / External Financing Institute (InFinEx) (1941-1944) GOOD
• Comandamentul Armatei Roșii / Red Army Command (1944) GOOD
​• Banca Republicii Populare Române - Banca de Stat / Bank of the People's Republic of Romania- State Bank (1949-1952) GOOD
​• Banca Națională a Republicii Socialiste Române / National Bank of the Socialist Republic of Romania (1966) GOOD

What about those "Austria-Hungary Bank - Bukovina
Austria-Hungary Bank - Transilvania (Siebenbürgen) and Banat", you marked them as 10 Regiment?

Hello,
Thanks for the feedback!

I took the info from Buzdugan, Luchian, Oprescu: "Monede și bancnote românești", 1977:

According to this book, the 1877 issue was Ministry of finance:

Otherwise I am not sure I can add all the individual years in the field, I have to check. I think it will just say (1877-1952) i.e. first and last year of issue.

Hunters Regiment also come from this book:

There were many other military issuers, I have some to add I think. But for these, I suggest we first add at least a note to the catalog, and then I can create the issuing authority.

The "Treasury" of 1919 issue comes from Krause Specialised Issues, but checking MBR, it looks like it was also a Ministry of finance issue:


As I mentioned above, the Austro-Hungarian Bank had no authority in the new Romanian territories, so i don't think it can be a Romanian issuer. Indeed, they issued the original notes, but what made them legal tender in Transylvania was the stamp applied by the Ministry of Finance. And we are recording the stamp basically...

Best

Cita: "SpuDy"In 1877 "Tesaurul" or "Treasury" printed banknotes.

This was so painful

Cita: "stratocaster"​Hello,
​Thanks for the feedback!
​
​I took the info from Buzdugan, Luchian, Oprescu: "Monede și bancnote românești", 1977:
​
​According to this book, the 1877 issue was Ministry of finance:
​
​Otherwise I am not sure I can add all the individual years in the field, I have to check. I think it will just say (1877-1952) i.e. first and last year of issue.
​
​Hunters Regiment also come from this book:
​
​There were many other military issuers, I have some to add I think. But for these, I suggest we first add at least a note to the catalog, and then I can create the issuing authority.
​
​The "Treasury" of 1919 issue comes from Krause Specialised Issues, but checking MBR, it looks like it was also a Ministry of finance issue:
​
​
​As I mentioned above, the Austro-Hungarian Bank had no authority in the new Romanian territories, so i don't think it can be a Romanian issuer. Indeed, they issued the original notes, but what made them legal tender in Transylvania was the stamp applied by the Ministry of Finance. And we are recording the stamp basically...
​
​Best
​

​Strange, So i guess we'll go with Ministry of Finance for 1877, good.
How should we name the 1918 stamped notes? But not with the "REGIMENTUL..", about those http://banknote.ws/COLLECTION/countries/EUR/ROM/ROM-BSB.htm, the stamp says "TIMBRU SPECIAL" - Special Stamp.

Cita: "SpuDy"​How should we name the 1918 stamped notes? But not with the "REGIMENTUL..",

​Totally agree. There are banknotes stamped with so many different stamps.

Hello,

The "Issuing Entity" field should be reserved to institutions (public/private e.g. Banks, Companies, treasuries, ministries, army commands etc). "Timbru special" is not an institution. At some point there will probably be a field for series, where we can add this info ("Timbru special" counter-stamp or similar). If my Romanian is correct, according to the last image in my previous post, the issuer of the stamps was also the Ministry of Finance, so I would keep it like this. They will be differentiated anyway because they have a different currency.

@Andy289 I am not sure what you mean? I see no problem in adding as many army issuers as there were... that's what that field is for. But these notes are quite rare, so I just suggest only adding them once we actually have a note in the catalog.

Regards

Let me be more clear than. There was no army issues. Just because on the applied stamp was the name of a regiment or military division it doesn't mean the banknotes were issued by military order but as you already said somewhere before they were issued by the command of Ministry of Finance. Since these banknotes has been issued by foreign banks the real issuing entities are these banks but regarding the stamped banknotes which should be listed indeed under Romania it's more safe to use Ministry of Finance as the issuing entity because all this things happened under their control.

Agreed, i'll go with the names on the notes.
So, "timbru.." and "regimentul" would be Austro-Hungarian bank, if that s okay for you

Sorry you guys completely confuse me...

Andy289 said that they were issued by the "Ministry of Finance" and then SpuDy "agrees" they were issued by the Austro-Hungarian Bank

We will go with a written reference, and the best one so far is MBR. In general, we prefer local references to generic ones like Krause. If you have a better reference, feel free to bring it up and I am happy to update.

In the meantime, all the entities (apart from army issuers) were added according to MBR. When we have army notes, I can add those too.

Regards

strato

Ha ha ha, he agreed with my statements. As I said the real issuing entity was Austro-Hungarian Bank so he agreed with that part. For me, what makes this notes to be listed under Romania is the stamp applied on the notes. Since these stamps were applied under the command of Minister of Finance by the Romanian regiments and military divisions, personally I would prefer seeing them as issued by Minister of Finance. So now you can be even more confused, both of you - SpuDy and you - are right and it's just a matter of preference and forum direction. We want to list the real issuing entity or the entity that makes these notes to be placed under Romania and not a foreign country?

@Andy289: the "timbru special" stamps are indeed issued by the Ministry of Finance, as explained in the third scan I posted. I never argued otherwise. Indeed we list the issuer of the stamp - that's what made the notes legal tender in Romania.

Simalarly, we list countermarked coins under the issuer of the countermark.

Which army notes are you talking about, Andy289? Regimentul 10 issued notes on 27 October 1918, on the 1st day of the 2nd campaign in Transylvania. This is before the Union. The Ministry of Finance of Romania had no authority in Transylvania. The Ministry order came in early 1919 and stamping started on 6 June.

Regards

Cita: "stratocaster"Regimentul 10 issued notes on 27 October 1918, on the 1st day of the 2nd campaign in Transylvania

Can you think a little bit about what you just stated above? How can a Romanian military regiment be able to issue notes in the same day when the royal decree empowered the army to start the war in Transylvania? As I said to another numista member, please stop throwing random articles that are not related with any historic source. Show me such banknote issued by Regimentul 10.

Thank you!
So, Bukovina and Trasilvania i'll add under Ministry of Finance, right?

Romania also had Foreign Exchange Certificates as well.

Have a look here; https://banknote.ws/COLLECTION/countries/EUR/ROM/ROM-FEX.htm .

Check this thread to hear a funny story about these vouchers.

Cita: "SpuDy"​Thank you!
​So, Bukovina and Trasilvania i'll add under Ministry of Finance, right?

​Hello,
Sorry I omitted to reply... A lot of stuff to do.
Yes, I think so... that's what MBR says. But if you have a better reference, I am happy to update.
Best regards

Check this out;

http://banknote.ws/COLLECTION/countries/EUR/ROM/ROM.htm .

Aidan.